Serenbe Stories

Telling Stories To Save The Earth: Dr. Katharine Wilkinson & Mary Annaïse Heglar

October 12, 2020 Serenbe / Katharine Wilkinson / Mary Annaïse Heglar Season 4 Episode 2
Serenbe Stories
Telling Stories To Save The Earth: Dr. Katharine Wilkinson & Mary Annaïse Heglar
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, Steve Nygren and Monica Olsen talk with New York Times bestselling author Dr. Katharine Wilkinson and writer + podcaster Mary Annaïse Heglar about the power of voice, their love of nature, and the new book "All We Can Save," which showcases the work of women at the forefront of the climate movement who are harnessing truth, courage, and solutions to lead humanity forward.

As Mary Annaïse says, "Climate isn't a story, it's a saga," and "we are the heroes in the tale of saving the planet.” Katharine calls on us all to be "climate curious,” and to open your heart and use your super powers. Join us as we discuss the power of storytelling in affecting change.

Mentioned In The Episode

All We Can Save 

Hot Take podcast

Subscribers to their weekly newsletter

Chattahoochee NOW 

Trust for Public Land 

 Chattahoochee RiverLands Project 

Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson 

DRILLED

Amy Westervelt

Leah Stokes 

Kate Orff

SCAPE

Emily Atkin

HEATED
 
HEATED podcast

The Outdoor Academy

Mary Oliver

Annie Dillard 

Terry Tempest Williams 

The Pisgah National Forest

Lindsay Baker  

Globescan 

“How empowering women and girls can stop global warming” 

Ray C. Anderson Interface

Green New Deal

Mary Anne Hitt

Sierra Club

Catherine Pierce 

Alice Walker 

Sewanee: The University of the South 

Madeleine Jubilee Saito 

Monica Olsen (1s):
Hey guys, it's Monica here. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast that I've started with my very good friend, Jennifer Walsh called biophilic solutions. Our last season of ceremony stories, building a biophilic movement was so popular that we decided to dedicate an entire podcast to it every other week. Jennifer and I will sit down with leaders in the growing field of biophilia. We'll talk about local and global solutions to help nurture the living social and economic systems that we all need to sustain. Future generations more often than not. Nature has the answers. You can find biophilic solutions on apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe and follow us today. So you don't miss an episode.

Monica Olsen (41s):
All right, now let's get back to  serenbe stories.

Monica Olsen  (58s):
Serenbe  is a place where the innate connections humans have with nature and all living things is celebrated through work and play. And we're here to tell the stories of those who have been inspired by this biophilic way of life in our community and across the country. This is serenbe stories.



Monica Olsen (1m 25s):
On today's episode. We have New York times bestselling author, Dr. Katherine Wilkinson and writer, podcaster Mary on east Hagler to talk about the power of voice, their love of nature and the new book. All we can say that showcases the work of 41 women at the forefront of the climate movement, who are harnessing truth, courage, and solutions to lead humanity forward as Mariani. So eloquently says climate. Isn't a story. It's a saga and we are the heroes and the tale of saving the planet. Catherine calls on us all to be climate curious, open your hearts and use your superpowers. Join us as we discuss the power of storytelling in effecting change.

Monica Olsen (2m 7s):
That first serenbe stories is brought to you by the, inn at serenbe. The inn is nestled in the rolling countryside, a bucolic ceremony where guests can walk on the 15 miles of trails through preserve forest land, the wildflower meadow, and the animal village. You can relax by the pool, hot tub or in rocking chairs on the wraparound porch. Play on the croquet lawn swings and in-ground trampolines connect with nature and each other all while staying in luxurious rooms on the inn-ground are within the community of Serenbe book your stay today@serenbeinn.com.

Monica Olsen (2m 37s):
All right, well, I want to welcome everybody to serenbe stories today. We have two exciting guests. We have Dr. Katherine Wilkinson and we had Mary Annaise Heglar  here. I think in Atlanta, Mary is in New York. And then of course we have our co-host Steve Nygren with us today. So I want to say welcome to everybody. 

Steve Nygren:
Nice to meet you.

Monica Olsen:
We are in our fourth season of our stories and this year, or this season, we're talking about biophilia. So we're definitely going to touch on that today.

Monica Olsen (3m 18s):
I want to know all about your backgrounds, but the biggest thing I want to hear is how we can be better storytellers about the climate. Cause I think we're all in this together. And how do we tell that story? But first the question I always ask and Mary, I know that you are connected to us via Catherine, but Steve, you and Katherine have a pretty long relationship. And so I would love to hear how do you guys know each other? And how did you come into our lives?

Steve Nygren:
 It's like we know one another for some time Katherine. I can't remember

 Dr. Katherine Wilkinson(3m 52s):
I'm trying to think Steve. Surely Chattahoochee now was not the first time.

 Steve Nygren(3m 60s):
I don't think that was the first because you were down here early.

 Dr.Katherine Wilkinson(4m 5s):
I think maybe it was chat now because we had that board retreat during Snowmageddon, which, which was a long time ago now.

Steve Nygren (4m 15s):
Yes, that was, that was that your first chat now meeting that we had at serenbe. Was one of those days that there was threatening snow storms and everyone said, oh no. You know, the weather is never right and between and had lunch suddenly the snow started,, we finished lunch. And there were horror stories on everyone getting back to their homes.

Dr.Katherine Wilkinsion (4m 40s):
Yes, it was, it was an unusually long journey back from Serenbe.

Monica Olsen (4m 45s):
Did you make it okay. I mean, clearly you're you're with us still, but my husband, I know, had to leave the car at like Hutcheson ferry and like walked in. Cause he couldn't get up the hill in the snow. 

Dr.Katherine Wilkinson:
Yeah. Happily.I was not sleeping, sleeping on the side of the interstate. Like some folks. 

 Monica Olsen(5m 2s):
Yeah. Mary, you don't understand. But like when it snows in Georgia, like that's the end of it. Everything's shut down and people are gusting across and we are done. No one's going out. Nobody knows how to dive in that. School's close. Everything's out. Everything off. 

Monica Olsen:
Can you, can you guys, I'm Steven, Katherine, tell us what chat now is. Cause you made reference to it, but, and it's actually, is it chat now or chatting? What do we call it?

Steve Nygren:
 Know, we started looking at the 53 miles out of south bend state park.

Steve Nygren (5m 54s):
Really got to know Katherine through that whole effort. So fond of her, her knowledge, her energy and everything you've done has been great. And that's been probably about seven years that we've been meeting. And that project has been now absorbed by trust Republic, land and the Atlanta regional commission chat.  It's now known as the river lands project. Now, still working as to where we can support that a hundred miles through a major city and then touch on for me, Catherine and Mary, cause you guys have a book, an anthology coming out and Mary is one of the writers in it.

3 (6m 41s):
But how do you guys know each other? How did you discover your connections, Mary laughing? So this is going to be a good story, Catherine. And I know each other, a Twitter, Twitter gets this rap of being this, you know, toxic, toxic place. And it can be that definitely. But what I've found in the climate space is just like this incredible system of women who like Wade through that toxic sludge together and becoming closer and stronger because of it. And so that's how I first became.

3 (7m 22s):
I think that's how we first became aware of each other. And then that sort of grew into an offline relationship as well. We have this magical retreat in Montana together last year that Catherine masterminded and she also masterminded this book with Ayana. Like they are quite a duo together. They think of magical things.

0 (7m 44s):
Mary also thinks of a lot of magical things. And one of the like best things I think that came out of that retreat in Montana was Mary and Amy. Westervelt becoming collaborators and co-conspirators in good trouble of all sorts, including including their magnificent podcast, which is called hot take.

3 (8m 8s):
Yeah. Yes. Which is fantastic. And you guys just started out, but this year, right? Hot take. We started last November. So pretty recently. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, and we were talking internally that it's on a network called critical frequency, which I found out about because I obsessive really listened to drilled background and storytelling on climate change that like, I'm not a huge, like the cereal listeners, but it's like this like murder mystery of climate.

3 (8m 49s):
But yeah, hot take definitely, definitely needs to listen to, and then just to stick to our podcasts, it sounds like maybe Catherine, you have one pending too.

0 (8m 58s):
Yes. I don't think it's been revealed publicly yet, but probably probably by the time this goes out over November, the trailer will at least be out. It's called, it's called a matter of degrees. And I'm doing that with Leah Stokes who is another contributor to the book. All we can save. And before I forget one thing that is really exciting. And Steve, I don't even know if I'd told you this, but Kate Orff who runs the landscape architecture firms scape, who's this incredible MacArthur genius, amazing human.

0 (9m 38s):
She did an essay for all. We can save also about mending our landscapes. And one of the things she writes about is the Chattahoochee river lands project. So kind of amazingly full circle. The Chattahoochee has a spot in the book as well.

3 (9m 54s):
Oh fabulous. Yeah. It's amazing how small the circle is unfortunately. And so that's why all the podcasts and everything you're all doing helps broaden that circle, which is going to be right. Right. There's no into the ways that we can tell this story. So I'm always excited when there's another climate podcasts coming on the scene like selfishly and like great. Another thing I don't have to cover online because like, if I wanted to do policy on hot ticket, doesn't work where a media and climate show, like we talk about like the art of storytelling or the absence of storytelling. Right? So like we often get people asking us to do, you know, like interview a wind and solar entrepreneur and we're like that doesn't fit for us at all.

3 (10m 39s):
So I'm so happy to see like this pollination or like expansion of the podcast universe on this is great. So I'm really excited for a matter of degrees. That's a great name. Thanks.

0 (10m 52s):
Yeah. Hot, take a hat raised up a high bar on good climate.

3 (10m 60s):
I laughed so hard when I thought of that day. And another one, if we're looking for good podcasts is heated. It's not, I don't think she's turned into a podcast yet, but that's Emily is an Aiken who has an incredible newsletter that everybody should be reading because she's also doing a really good job of sort of bringing together all of the more, the actual news and sort of interpreting it. But I would be remiss if I didn't plug my own newsletter, which we just launched back in may. So it's even newer, but it's a weekly news digest for if you want to follow the climate story, because it's not always easy to find all the best like climate reporting out there is kind of disparate.

3 (11m 48s):
So we started as just doing a digest of links of all the climate stories from the week. And then it was like, but we have stuff to say. So now we have all of these many features that Amy and I write about, like this week we wrote about prison evacuations in wildfires. They are the hot mess that you would imagine them to be. And like the lack of media coverage of climate and all sorts of stuff. So our newsletter

0 (12m 22s):
Say, I have now become like totally dependent on the Roundup of articles that you all do. It's, it's really true. Like, oh, climate coverage is scattered. It's hidden. It's not easy to find in one place. So it's, it really is like an amazing like gift you all are giving to the climate conscious community

3 (12m 45s):
And it takes you off of Twitter because normally that's how you, where you have to go to keep up with it. It is, it's true. It's true. So I want to dive much more into storytelling, but I do want to know like how did you guys get here and maybe I'll start with Mary. Like what shaped you, where you, you started out in media and communication. So you're sort of a storyteller by trade, but, but why climate? How did you jump into that as sort of the core? So I got into climate in 2014 in earnest. I think I had always kind of seen it as, it's not just a story as a soccer and it's like an everything story is the setting of every story in the world.

3 (13m 29s):
And so I came to it in 2014 because I kind of had this urge to work on something that I felt was really, really important. And so I specifically targeted, targeted either public health or climate organizations or environmental organizations as I thought of them at the time. And I started editing policy publications, long reports, the type of stuff that like Catherine is really good at. So I got into editing those sorts of things. And they're really scary. They're really terrifying when you think there are many times where I would have to call up the author and be like, am I reading this right?

3 (14m 13s):
Like, are this many people going to die from this decision? And they're still making it anyway. And so like having to wrap my head around that. And so a couple of years that we start to get these nightmares and you start to want to, you need a way to process it. I needed a way to process it. And so I went into, I started writing again, which was something I did a lot of in high school and college and very much part of my identity. But in my professional life, I started turning into an editor just because writing for a living so exactly easy. So I came back to being a writer about like in 2018 and kind of stayed there ever since then expanded into podcasting and other forms, communications, but I'm really good at making noise about things so well and finding that purpose is so important.

3 (15m 16s):
And you know, this is the one that, I mean, the planet will go on without it agree. Well, we're the ones that are the problem, right? In some form, it will be here. Like where does the planet begin? And where does it in? Because the coral reef is part of the plan and the coral reef is not going to go on without us, like all those trees that are on fire right now. That's part of, we're part of the planet. So like, yeah, like I think it's going to go on, it's not going to be on harm. True, true. It's not going to go on in a good way, so I should have clarified, but let me bring up by affiliate because that is sort of the topic that we've been talking about this season.

3 (15m 58s):
And so that actually is exactly what you're saying, that we are all connected. And so is that something that you had heard of before, or sort of has incorporated into any of your work by Ophelia as a concept that we're all connected, all living things and that we have a love of life and all things. It's definitely a concept that resonates with me. I just did not know it had a name. I thought that it was, that was just like normal

0 (16m 35s):
Total biophilia, total. Mary Mary has a lot of bio related fields. One of the things I've observed

3 (16m 45s):
And Steve, we had this, that exhibition opened this weekend. That is a biophilia international biophilia poster exhibition at ceremony. And one of our residents has a really phenomenal brand agency called brand culture. And he had this idea where he wanted to hear a posters that were focused on biophilia as a concept in the woods. And so they are displayed in the woods at ceremony when this is live, they will be gone. But we're talking about doing it annually. There's a hundred of them that are displayed in the woods between the trees out of 3,500 submissions from like 160 countries. But Steve came to do a talk for the kids in the morning.

3 (17m 26s):
And what did you bring? Steve? I brought a sock that I put on my hand where I had drawn. I call him a whole sketch. I want to do a cartoon of introducing. Cause when we started before the biophilic Institute, seven, eight years ago, everyone was saying, what is that? And I said, no, it goes at the end. It's bio fail. I kind of remember it, but it's amazing how common, because it's, it's one of the only words that I've found that truly describes what we all are struggling and have to use.

3 (18m 14s):
So many phrases talk about once people start understanding it's oh yes. Well, yes. That's the way the world used to be a hundred years ago when we really knew. But yeah, that's kind of similar to the word feminist, like when people find out what it is, they're like, oh yeah, of course. I believe so many things. I remember looking for a gardener and I said, you had to be organic. And the woman said, well, I'm sorry. I, I, I don't do that. And we talked some more and once I explained to her, well, why don't you? Oh yeah, that's the way my grandmother taught me. That's the only way I do it. She just did not have the word organic well.

3 (18m 56s):
And Catherine, tell us what was your sort of moment, because I know that you've sort of had a bit of a journey, but had been a writer all this time. You know, I studied religion originally and wrote a fabulous book that I have not read, but having read all the reviews, I'm very fascinated with called between God and green, which people say is very subversive, but it's sort of like how evangelicals are finding the middle ground on climate, which I thought was fabulous. But so much of your work has been bringing people together from disparate backgrounds for this topic, you know, led to draw down and everything, but, and then the current book, but tell us, like, what was the beginning, where was the sort of thing that shaped you to get into climate?

0 (19m 40s):
And I will say that's between God and green is an academic book. I should just reveal that to listeners my, at the time, like 98 year old, great aunt read it. And she loved it, Irma, but it's not exactly a page Turner.

3 (19m 60s):
I should caveat that warning.

0 (20m 4s):
So when I was, when I was 16, my spring of my sophomore year in high school, I spent the semester at this really amazing place in Western North Carolina called the outdoor academy. And I lived in the woods with 25 kids. I lived in a one room cabin with 10 girls. We chopped wood to heat our cabin and, you know, mowed the field with mules for hay and worked in the garden. And you know, all of that kind of stuff was happening.

0 (20m 45s):
But all of our coursework also had a really kind of heavy focus on environmental studies, natural history, our English course, we were reading Mary Oliver and Annie Dillard and Terry Tempest Williams and others. And that was a really just formative time for me. It's hard to pinpoint kind of exactly one thing, except I think it was just sort of holding this focus on a livable planet in community that that was really deeply awakening for me.

0 (21m 26s):
And I have a really vivid memory of hiking up through this valley in Pisgah forest, coming out onto this Ridge line, out of the CIC, incredibly lush space and into just a totally denuded mountain side. So it was the first time I'd ever seen a clearcut. And at least, I guess to my knowledge, I'd probably seen them on the side of the highway or something. And it just like shattered me. I felt so heartbroken about sort of, you know, th the way that dominant society is interacting with the planet in these really harmful and profit oriented and extractive ways.

0 (22m 24s):
And so that was like one of the moments from that time that's really stayed, stayed with me. And now that I am aware of how much more we know about the way trees communicate, I look back on that experience and think about like, what must it feel like to be a tree at the edge of a clear-cut as you know, your, your friends, right? Your Ken that you're connected with through my CLL networks underground are just being, you know, murdered basically.

0 (23m 4s):
Anyway. And I, I carried that with me back into, back to Atlanta and into activism that ranged from running a very failed green building campaign. And in high school with a friend who actually now is a really amazing green building, professional Lindsey baker, who, you know, Mary who joined us in Montana and into college. But I think that time at the outdoor academy really started my interest in like, what are the stories that we're telling about this place and, and our responsibility to this planet and one another, or lack thereof.

0 (23m 51s):
And so that interest in kind of storytelling and discourse and narrative, and really link kind of the big human questions that ecological crises ask us to grapple with has, has, has really been a sustaining interest across lots of different iterations of work and different sectors in different hats that can look a little schizophrenic, but I think that's probably one of the connective threads. Yeah.

3 (24m 22s):
I think that that's beautiful. And I think that everything leads, you know, you don't know where it's going to take you, but everything we do in our lives leads us to the next thing. And we're not quite sure what that's going to be. And I think again, the narrative and the storytelling is so important because that's something that we're always trying to do. Right. And obviously, you know, we're doing it in a very specific way, but we in the end want to connect people to nature. That's a huge thing that like ceremonies goal is. And like, I wouldn't have ever that wasn't really where I wasn't getting into climate activism or sustainability or green, you know, I was more of a brand marketer, but having moved to Sarah MB and working with Steve, that sort of really focused my purpose.

3 (25m 11s):
And so like, what are the small things that you can do to bring people in? Right. And it's very difficult to get people to want to talk about climate and it's so integral. So we're always trying to find ways almost subversively to sneak it in. Yeah. I think people, you know, go to like connect with nature and find out that the reconnecting with themselves, like I love Katherine's story about the day school. I feel like it, it just explains so much about Catherine, but also just hearing about like clear cut forest.

3 (25m 51s):
Like I relate to that story. So, so hard. Cause I remember the first time I saw a clear cut for us along the side of the highway, I feel like they're getting closer to the highway like recently. And it broke. Like, it was the only way to describe it as like my heart street, this thoroughly painful to see that one of the things that I think both of you and I, and I see it more in your work, Catherine, but I think with hot take clearly that's there too is really how do you bring people into a movement? And I think with, you know, draw down, you know, it was project draw down. And I think with the new book, you know, it's really thinking about, you know, all we can save project, like there is work to be done, but tell me, you know, both of you, like what you, what are you learning on that journey?

3 (26m 43s):
You know, what are the best practices? How, how, like, what did you learn from drawdown that maybe didn't didn't work that you're bringing to all we can say differently?

0 (26m 52s):
Yeah. I love, I love this question because we do, we need the biggest and strongest team possible. And I think historically the climate movement has not, and the sort of green movement, generally, hasn't always been a very welcoming place, right? There's been a lot of, you know, we talk about science and we talk about policy and these are all the things you do do. And these are all the things you don't do. And we'll shame you if you do the wrong things and you know, and it's felt very, broey, it's felt very like I'm in a fact fact at you until you like get it and that like, nobody wants to go to that party.

0 (27m 40s):
And I think, you know, I think one of the things that draw down got right was like, we're so there's not enough climate discourse, but the climate discourse that does exist and end dates us with the problem. There was some really interesting research that was done by Ikea and globe scan a couple of years ago that when they asked people across 14 countries, what do you think of when you think of climate change or global warming? 44% of people said something about outcomes, right? The bad news fires, floods, sea level rise, hurricanes, et cetera. Only three people said that they thought about solutions.

0 (28m 23s):
And if we're not thinking about solutions, you know, fat chance that we're going to move them forward at the scale and the speed that's required. So, and I think embedded in the story of solutions is actually a different story about humanity. That rather than just like, we're terrible, horrible, no good, very bad greedy, lazy in competent beings, which like there's truth to that, that like we're also capable of linking arms and being collaborative and committed and compassionate. And you know, sometimes we're brilliant and gutsy, and I think that's the story that we have to believe in, right?

0 (29m 9s):
That's at least the story that I would like to be a part of. And with all we can save the book, you know, in a lot of ways it was born out of a fit of frustration that so much of climate discourse has been dominated by a relatively small cabal of white men and Ayana. And I were, we now call it our rage hike in, in Colorado. And we were just like, there are so many brilliant women doing incredible work in this space and they're not getting the mic enough. They're not getting enough resources, et cetera, et cetera, too much, really good work as a side hustle.

0 (29m 52s):
Like how do we change this? And so we thought, well, publishing is a critical pathway to quote unquote thought leadership in the world, right. For better, for worse. And so we thought, well, what if we did kind of a mass amplification project in the form of an anthology? And I think that ties really closely to what I feel like has been a gap in draw down. And one that I'd really like to fill going forward. And I say, gap, you know, no single effort can do everything. Right. A focus on solutions is a useful focus, but I really think about the climate crisis as a leadership crisis.

0 (30m 36s):
And the leadership that we've got now is not getting the job done. And, and I think we need, certainly we need gender parody in leadership and we don't have it in really any sector that is shaping decisions about the climate crisis, including UN negotiations and legislatures and business. And, you know, the list goes on and on. And also, you know, we know that so much transformational leadership in this moment is coming specifically from black women, indigenous women and other women of color.

0 (31m 21s):
And so, you know, the, the ultimate goal of the book and the project that we're launching the same day of publication called the all we can save project is ultimately to get money, to get resources into the hands of folks who are doing great work and need to have that work unleashed and sort of propelled forward with the necessary resources. So that's, yeah, that's fine.

3 (31m 56s):
It's amazing. And we've talked about a lot, Steve, you know, where, you know, if it's not something that people understand, whether that's a financial institution or a bank or whatever, the white guy, right. Cause even, you know, the first two seasons of the podcast, right. Steve, the first was Steve story. And then the second one was all the people to sort of help Steve. But we, we walked away from that second season being like, oh, those are great stories where like it's all white and nice. And so Steve and I are like, well, that was, that's just a fact, right. That's just, that was the truth at the time. And so we're like, how do we bring more people into this conversation? And so we did that with our third season, and then we're trying to do that even more now and not to say that white men aren't important.

3 (32m 40s):
I mean, I, I worked for a fabulous one right here, but like how do we really broaden the conversation? And I was very taken by draw down the one of the biggest, you know, cause again, you've got all these solutions, which is fantastic, but it was also overwhelming, right. There were. So they all seem so big. I didn't know how I could intersect and support any of them, but the, one of the ones that struck me and that I have really sort of held is women in an education and not realizing that, just that one thing of educating girls could be such an incredible opportunity that would have a ripple effect that, you know, the, the book talks about.

3 (33m 28s):
And you know, you can, you can read many, many stories. And in fact, in fact, I think you did a Ted talk for Ted women of how much that can affect not only their outcomes in life, right. But the climate outcomes in life. And so how do we tell people stories because not all of them are going to click, right. You know, like I can know maybe I don't care really. I don't really understand solar or renewables or regenerative agriculture, but you know, the, the women and girls that sort of was the one that was sort of most interesting to me. And maybe I felt like I could then support, make sure that local public education was happening or there, you know, and so married.

3 (34m 8s):
What do you think is like sort of that thing that you have learned in doing the podcast this past year, because every day we learned something different about how we can tell a story in a better way. Tell me a little bit about like what, you're, what you're learning over the past year of like how to tell that better story. Yeah. I have so many thoughts about this. So when I let's go back before the podcast to, when I decided to write publicly, I chose a very specific way to approach it. And that was through the first person and through prioritizing the emotions of how this made me feel.

3 (34m 48s):
And the reason I did that is because climate change is emotional. There's no way to look at it without, you know, feeling some sense of, of sadness, of dread of just heartbreak. And I felt like nobody was talking about the way it feels and that made it really difficult to engage with it. I kind of liken it to, you know, let's say you have a really serious, rare disease. That's potentially deadly. And your doctor, instead of talking about, you know, how this must feel for you as a person who might be facing the termination of your life and says nerds out on how the disease is killing you.

3 (35m 32s):
Like you that's terrible bedside manner would probably not go back to that doctor if they're, oh my God. So the cancer is killing you, right? Like I don't want to talk to you anymore. And that was the way I felt like climate was being talked about. It was all about like the science and the carbon and what it was doing to the planet and not even taking into account. Hey, I'm telling you that the thing you need to live is legit dying. You're not going to make it without it, like, like I need a hug this. And so I decided to also take the first person route because no one can tell me what I did or didn't feel.

3 (36m 13s):
And also it allows the reader, someone to empathize with and not feel alone as they face this. And also like just completely honest, everything I write is for me, it is because I am trying to work through something and find a catharsis. Like I am my first audience. And if in the process of wrestling with whatever idea, I feel like I have something to share and something that might help someone else. Then I put it out there and if not it's mine. So it's, it's always that those sort of dual goals. So that's one thing. Another thing that I do in my writing, we also try to do in, in the podcast is to make it clear that this is not climate change is not happening.

3 (36m 59s):
Someone is doing it there, it does the villain in this story, there are several, and we know who they are and it's not you because you didn't turn your lights off. So all that shaming and blaming that, that Catherine was just talking about that really keeps people out of the conversation. It keeps people out of the movement and we need to do away with it because not only is it a lie is a counterproductive lie. So that's the one thing like name the villain, like the story's incomplete without familiar and make it, make it real for people like make it not, we need to stop talking about it as though it's something far away, stop talking about it under the frame of like our children and grandchildren.

3 (37m 40s):
And another thing that we do with a podcast, again, like I was saying about finding, finding your niche, Amy and I are both like communicators and writers. And, you know, we were often texting about like our frustration with the way the media was covering the climate change, the climate crisis anyway. And so it was like, well, this is clearly what our podcasts should be on. So finding that, that nation talking about, like, we often say that, well, we have the solutions, we just don't have the political role. And we believe that the main way that you build political will or one of the main ways is in the media and in the storytelling and the way you talk about it.

3 (38m 20s):
So we decided to go with that focus. We also decided to go with the focus of like, we're not the focus that like the tone of being more irreverent, more silly, having more humor in the way that we talk about it and being like loose and being our real selves one, because look, we're doing this on top of other jobs. I, if I'm going to have to come in here and be somber and serious, I don't want to do it. Like I want to have fun. And also because it like makes it less intimidating for the listener who was probably like, Carrie, if they're a climate person already, they're probably like carrying a lot of, you know, grief or whatever. And if they're climate curious, probably feel intimidated by it.

3 (39m 2s):
If you come on and I'm telling you a dad joke, that kind of takes, it takes some of the weight off of you. So honestly, like that was a lot, but really what it is, is just trying to tell the whole story and to make the story human and to make it real well. And I love what you said there, it's like, it's, it has been a story that has said it's happening to us, but it's not it's happening to us. Right. It's like being done. It's being done. Yeah. It's being done. And I think just those words, right. Versus this passive leg, I don't know, you know what to do now.

3 (39m 44s):
And I do think the second thing that you said, which, which I don't know if we can dig into a little bit more is, you know, you, you need to be the solution. You know, if you, if you recycle more and if you use any scar and if you don't use single use plastics, you know, the things that are going to solve it. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be doing those things. Those are great, but really, you know, those who will be a named large companies and Atlanta shouldn't be using single use plastics. Right. Or producing them. That's, I mean, producing them well, putting their products in them. And so, but that's a back to the consumer demand, right?

3 (40m 24s):
Like we need to be the change, which sounds cliche at this point. But like, we need to actually sort of push back and, and find the villain, which I think is a, is an interesting way to sort of position it. I always liked for the more like positive hopeful, but, but I think maybe we need to start thinking of it that way, you know, that there is someone that is doing this. Yeah. I think it actually is positive and hopeful, like every great story from ever like fairytales or whatever. There's a villain and people deceit the villain. Right. So we are the good guys and we have been cast as the bad guys in the story and, and we're not right.

3 (41m 5s):
Like they are committing genocide and convincing us that as suicide is simply not. So, yeah, I think also I like the frame of climate justice as opposed to climate action, because to me, climate action is individual and climate justice is inherently collective. And so what we also really have to let go of is this idea of individual actions. So I think a lot of people feel like, well, I can't save climate change by myself. Therefore I can do nothing and let go of that. You're going to be part of solution. You're not going to be VC. I love that. I was just going to say, yeah. And then as brought people into hope in seeing blue eyes and as we've shut down, some of these factories, they saw change.

3 (41m 56s):
Is that going to bring outrage now, as we see the clouds come back and the fires that are happening is that enough outrage that we're going to search out the villains.

0 (42m 6s):
So from, from a climate perspective, I think actually the pandemic shows us just how much individual action can't be, the solution, just how much it has to be systemic change. Because even when it felt like so much shifted, right, no cars on the road, no airplanes in the sky are our global emissions only dropped by seven or 8%, which is nothing when we're talking about trying to get to zero, right. And then draw down on top of that.

0 (42m 47s):
So, so I think, you know, and I don't know how much this message really has gotten through in the pandemic, but it is, to me, the moral of the story is get on the climate justice bandwagon because there is no reduce our way into a clean energy grid, right? There is no reduce our way into a circular economy. And I think Mary and Amy's theory of change around how you get political will is so spot on because time after time, after time, we see that culture almost always leads politics.

0 (43m 29s):
It almost always leads significant political change. And yet that really hasn't kind of cultural strategy has not been a focus of the climate movement traditionally. And I think it's part of why the youth movement is having so much impact and ethicacy because they are grasping the tools of culture, making and culture shaping and using those with moral clarity and an insistence on what the science tells us we have to do. And frankly, a refusal to let anything less than radical transformation be the path forward.

0 (44m 14s):
So I think, you know, for me, what I wish people heard more often than like, here's a checklist of eight things you can do for the climate. I wish that people heard the, the message of like, we need your superpowers in this movement. So Mary's super powers are writing and making noise about something that matters and having hilarious and enlightening conversations with Amy, you know, Monica, you talk about your branding and marketing and communication skill set, right? Like we desperately need that in the movement, Steve, you're a community builder and you see your way through to different ways that we could be living with one another and somehow you make them happen, which is like bogglingly.

0 (45m 5s):
Awesome. And so that's like, I wish that we talked about that more like we need everyone in the movement and we need you doing your most awesome things that you can do.

3 (45m 18s):
Yeah, absolutely. So it's like, do what you're good at and do your best. Steve has been writing and noodling really this sort of thought. And I, and I'm just sort of teeing you my peer, Steve, to sort of talk about it, but that, you know, how do you take care of your own backyard and not let that be a selfish thing, but thinking of it more as a place to start, because I think we can all get so overwhelmed with saving the coral Reeves, which I definitely want to see happen, but I don't know how I can do that. So like, what is my, so I don't know, Steve, if you want to touch on it a little bit.

3 (45m 60s):
No, I think we all have to come from that selfish place. That's where people are motivated and you know, not everyone sees saving the planet is the selfish reality that this is essential for our life. But I, I mean, for me, I had, I'd been frustrated with trying to make change being on all the right boards and what have you. And, you know, that's what I experienced 20 some years ago when I just stepped off the treadmill. And, and I came back here and in a very selfish way, just decided I wanted to say my own farm from urban sprawl. And of course it was Ray Anderson who kept pushing me through just a little bit more.

3 (46m 40s):
And finally, you know, if not you who, if not now, when, and I look at, I have gone on far more with just saving my backyard from a selfish perspective than I did all the national and local boards for years trying to make change. And so I think that, that if we all selfishly take care of our own backyard, and I do find that whatever influences, you know, maybe it as actually tending your backyard, maybe just getting other school board, maybe as you're, you know, as you were going through Catherine, the various skills that everyone has use them. And if we all did that, all of this connects and we could really change it, but too many people are busy pointing the finger and expecting everybody else.

3 (47m 27s):
So that's the one thing I think we have, we have to balance, we have to search out the villains, that's part of our passion. We can do it, do it, but then also look what we can do in our own backyard. Well, and another thing that I'd be curious, what everybody thinks is just words, right. You know, back to sort of phrasing of them. Right. And how you sort of can pivot on stuff. But I think even like the green new deal, which is like this amazing concept and idea, like hasn't really truly taken off. Like I think all of us would like to see, and that doesn't mean that there's not, you know, a lot of great work that's happening there, but is some of it the words green, sustainable, you know, are these words co-opted by the quote unquote other side, which I don't, like, I think we're all in this together.

3 (48m 20s):
Like, and so are there better words that we can use? I like the climate justice, you know, but are there better words I find like, by Ophelia so much, because it's nobody owns it. It's not one side or the other it's nature. And how can you argue with that? Right. So I don't know if that's something that we need to try and figure out as storytellers. What are the words we use that don't seem divisive? Yeah. I, I, we're going to have to get comfortable with fighting and division. No, no, really. I think that the other side is, is a death cult and it doesn't matter what you call it once upon a time, environmental was not divisive, but when you're up against someone who really like, they don't care, like they, they're going to take whatever you say, whatever you're for and be against it.

3 (49m 14s):
And so I actually would like to hear us say to invest more time in galvanizing black and brown people, then in convincing people who are convinced that they will never be convinced and convincing, convincing people who have joined a Colts. So I often get this question of what do you say to climate deniers? And the answer is I say nothing to them because they are generally racist and sexist and they would never talk to me. However, no one ever asks, what do you say to black people who don't see themselves in environments? Very rarely do I get that question? And I am a black person who used to not see myself in environmentalism.

3 (49m 56s):
So it's odd to me. And that's a lot of people. Those are people who are going to be most effected by this. Those are the people who have changed this country again and again and again, who know how to build movements, who know how to sustain themselves. So why are they less valuable than these people are going to play verbal linguistics now? Yes, they are going to take the words that you've used and twist them and turn them into something else. And what we need to not do is, well now they've, co-opted green new deal. We can't use anymore. No taking that. That's yours. That's awesome. Yeah. I love that. I like that. It's your ball, but I do think you're right, because if you don't see somebody in whatever field or industry or anything, then you're not reflected and then you don't feel welcome.

3 (50m 44s):
And so I think that's the biggest thing. How do we make sure that everybody feels welcome and bring everybody into it? And so, again, even this like exhibit that, that, that will will have happened, you know, to me, that's just an opportunity of like, everybody can take up, you know, well, the majority people can, you know, are comfortable taking a walk in the woods. Right. And they can come see these posters. Well, that's what we're pushing. We push people to come to the woods. Like if you can see this beautiful place called Sarah B, sometimes we use that as a little bit of the like, but other words that are going to activate these, I think they're, I don't know.

3 (51m 25s):
I think there's so many, I think fighting is one of them. I think, I dunno, naming who actually like basically all the things I've already kind of described, but I also want to talk, touch on this idea of people being comfortable with words, because it's really important to understand that if you Google pictures of black people and trees, they will be hanging from them. So there is a very deep trauma that goes back generations and generations that's needs to be dealt with. Also the environmental movement needs to deal with this very deep racism come. The conservation movement started as taking land away from native American people.

3 (52m 8s):
And so if you want those groups of people to feel comfortable, you're going to have to talk about that. Like just hearing the environment's movement, it nit that and try to reconcile with it feels more welcoming. And that is a lot of what we try to do on our podcasts and what I've tried to do in my writing. And that's, you know, those are the people that I feel like the environmental movement is, you know, kind of got a new guard and the youth climate movement is very much all about making those connections and connecting it to other things that people are already caring about because it's related to everything. And that is the side that's seeing the most momentum.

3 (52m 48s):
Well, and I think that's a great point that like the history providing context of like, this is why people aren't comfortable. And so let's talk about that. And let's how do we rectify that? We've had a lot of conversations around farming, you know, in the south is something that, you know, how do you bring more black people into farming, but you have to deal with the history before you can even get there. So I think that that's a really interesting, that's a good niche podcast is talk about the history of racism, environmentalism. How do you think that the work that you guys are doing, and this book is going to sort of bring people together? I mean, we can't really go out and do book signings right now.

3 (53m 29s):
Are you guys working on a lot of virtual opportunities? Like, cause it's like, we're super excited to get the word out about the book, but like what can we do to help you and where are you guys trying to push it out? And what are your goals there? Yeah.

0 (53m 42s):
I first just wanted to say thank you, Mary, for making those points because I think they are really important. I mean the, the environmental movement, the client kind of status quo, climate movement has a lot of work to do to become an anti-racist movement and space. And I think it is really important to talk about the things that have been operating within the movement for decades. If not, if we look at the conservation movement centuries, that's so, so important. And so I think we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable, right?

0 (54m 27s):
With what has come before and the kinds of the kinds of legacies that we want to deliberately enter out and, and reshaped going forward. And I hope, you know, I hope that all we can save, make some contribution to that. So, you know, it was, we, we focused on women who are doing work in the U S as the country that has historically caused so very much of the problem and historically refuse to be very much of the solution. We have so much work to do here.

0 (55m 9s):
And the fates of so many people globally, not to mention non-human beings on this planet, hang in the balance, right. Depending on what we do or don't do. It was really important to us to have voices from all different generations of the climate movement. From 14 to angry grandmothers. It was really important to us to have women from all different racial backgrounds who represent geographies across the U S urban, rural lots of different sectors and academic backgrounds, people wearing different hats, and also to include poetry and art.

0 (55m 51s):
Because I think kind of back to the conversation about, there's no way to show up with eyes wide open in this space and not have your heart broken. And so we need to be able to feel our feelings in the climate space and, and know that we're not alone. And so all of that is kind of in the quilt that is this, this book. And it's very much not a book about heroes, right? We could have had 18 volumes of all we can save, right? It's 448 pages. So it is not a small book, but it is a sliver of the leadership that we're seeing in this moment.

0 (56m 34s):
So it is not meant to be exhaustive. It's meant to be represent representative of the community of more feminist climate leadership. That is, that is showing up to this moment. We are doing virtual events of all different sorts. Mary and I are going to do an event in partnership with Agnes Scott and Keres books and more Atlanta's wonderful feminist bookstore in October. And we'll be joined by Maryanne Hitt, who is the remarkable leader of campaigns for the Sierra club, and also a wonderful poet named Katherine Pierce, who is based in Mississippi and Mary, I haven't asked you this yet, but I hope you will be willing to read Alice Walker's poem from the collection.

0 (57m 24s):
Oh my God. Yes. I figured you might say yes. And I guess just on the point of poetry, I'll just say a little something about the title of the book. It was very hard to name the collection. Cause we wanted to find that space between being honest about the really dire straits that we find ourselves in, but also looking forward to what is still possible.

0 (58m 5s):
And we ended up being inspired by a stanza from an Adrian rich poem called natural resources. It's the closing stands of the poem, says my heart is moved by all. I cannot save so much has been destroyed. I have to cast my lot with those who age after age perversely with no extraordinary power reconstitute the world. And I think that's, that's the team, right? Folks who age after age with no extraordinary power step into the arena and do the work of building a better and more just future. And we sort of inverted slightly all, I cannot save into the collective and into all that we can.

0 (58m 55s):
And I think I'll, I'll stop there and hand it to Mary.

3 (58m 59s):
Right. I got so into that, I forgot what the original question, what are you hoping for, for the book and sort of going forward? I mean, I think we've talked about a lot of beautiful things about bringing people together, but what are your sort of goals for getting the book out there and how can I get for the book or for you? And I mean, we want to amplify that you guys are doing period. Yeah. My dream is that it gets into the hands of, you know, lots of that demographic that, that, that Catherine was talking about a bit earlier, that has been a bit too, too vocal in climate circles.

3 (59m 43s):
You know, like the, the, for lack of a better term, all of white guys who talk over women and don't listen to their ideas and don't, don't think that emotions have a space in the climate conversation. I hope it gets into those hands. And they started forming book groups. And I started listening to women and particularly to women of color and understanding that they have something to contribute to the conversation. That's my top hope. I also hope that it can find its way into the hands of climate. Curious people, people who have felt intimidated by it and felt sort of ostracized out of the conversation.

3 (1h 0m 28s):
And they started to see that they can start talking about this too, that they don't have to write technical papers. They can write poetry, they can write essays and they can write technical papers too. If they want to start to see that they, they have a place in this conversation because it's everybody's planet. So it's everybody's site. Totally.

0 (1h 0m 50s):
I, yeah, perhaps the most, but like the highest praise I can possibly imagine. I'm teaching this book and an undergraduate seminar at Swanee, which is where I went, went to undergrad called the call, the call of climate and my, my class, the week that they read the began, which is what we named the, the opening of the book. So we were like, if it's called a forward or an introduction, people skip it. But maybe if we call it the begin, they'll actually, actually I made that. And when my students said, said, I was physically shaking while I read the begin, because I felt so empowered.

0 (1h 1m 32s):
And that is like, that's my greatest hope that for folks who've been in the work for a long time, it's a source of nourishment or illumination. And for those who have been hanging on the sidelines, because they haven't felt welcome that there is a sense that there are all of these different doors into the work. And at the end of the day, this is about building a community. So we're also launching the week of October 5th, what we're calling all, we can save circles, kind of the, you know, like the AP class version, maybe of a reading group, more, more than two glasses of Sharnay.

0 (1h 2m 20s):
And, but who, who wants to kind of gather up a small group and over the course of 10 weeks, this fall read the book together. We know how hungry people are for connection and relationship in, in the space and around the topic and for more generous dialogue than we often get around climate. So I would be remiss if I didn't point folks, there are details about that. And a lot more, all of the amazing contributors on our website, which is all we can save.earth, which is pretty easy to remember. I'm also

3 (1h 2m 60s):
Hoping for a sequel because there's just so much more to be said for this. And hopefully there'll be so many more amazing women who stepped forward and we can keep building on this.

0 (1h 3m 14s):
I love, I love that idea. I will also break that news gently to Ayana.

3 (1h 3m 23s):
I would like to extend an imitation. You know, we, we, we just had this poster exhibit and this is a way people are hungry to go to art galleries and there's, they're not doing. And so here we build the woods. He was socially distancing. We're announcing today. Atlanta symphony is doing a lot of their fall programming here in our pasture. And so I'm just imagining this incredible book signing where you all can have stations out in the woods and people can take their book and wander through and get however many can show up to sign this heck with these virtual books, let's have a real one right in the middle of

0 (1h 4m 6s):
It. I love it. I love it. And also there are incredible original illustrations in the book, which we're actually, we're doing a kind of hand printed print run of them. So maybe we actually could do some version of, of the outdoor gallery also with Madeline Jubilee. Cyto is the illustrator and, and also designer who she did are the art on a book cover and the website she's, she's amazing.

3 (1h 4m 41s):
That'd be great. And I think that when I heard your story, Catherine, about the first reading and, you know, I think rather than book clubs, you can have shaking circles that, you know, read the book and have it begin to shake yourself off. Cause that's, that's really, what we need to do is move people to the point that they literally physically great work. You all are doing. Yeah, this is phenomenal. And I'm, I'm going to commit to creating a circle here. So we'll have to figure out how to get you guys back on a, in a circle, zoom with whoever we bring in, in the neighborhood. Well, congratulations, you guys. I know it doesn't come out for a few weeks. It'll be out when the podcast is out all we can say truth, courage and the solutions for the climate crisis.

3 (1h 5m 25s):
Amazing work. Congratulations on the podcast. We will both be adding on to our listening list and thank you so much for your time. I feel absolutely honored to have had both of you on you guys were so amazingly articulate and sharing. Thank

0 (1h 5m 39s):
You all, both and excited to, to come down in person sometime soon. Mary, it's such a pleasure to get to be in conversation with you because we don't do this enough. Capita let's change that. Thank you. Bye.

1 (1h 6m 8s):
Thank you for listening to ceremony stories, new episodes are available on Mondays. Please rate and review the podcast and visit our website to learn more about upcoming guests, episodes and everything by ophelia@sarahbstories.com.