Have you ever wondered why Serenbe feels special or different from the vast majority of large developments? Or why there’s a certain feeling of calm in Serenbe that you can’t quite put your finger on? It all comes down to the details. From street signs, lamp posts, and trash cans, to front lawns (or lack thereof) and a very intentional street layout, Steve Nygren shares the small details that make all the difference when it comes to achieving a sense of place, a sense of community, and perfect imperfection.
Show Notes & Further Reading
Have you ever wondered why Serenbe feels special or different from the vast majority of large developments? Or why there’s a certain feeling of calm in Serenbe that you can’t quite put your finger on? It all comes down to the details. From street signs, lamp posts, and trash cans, to front lawns (or lack thereof) and a very intentional street layout, Steve Nygren shares the small details that make all the difference when it comes to achieving a sense of place, a sense of community, and perfect imperfection.
Show Notes & Further Reading
1 (13s):
Hi. I want to welcome everybody back to staring and be stories. And Steve is with us again. Today is just the two of us. And we are going to talk about all the details that matter
2 (25s):
If there is a large porch, many times people use it, especially in the evening or early morning. And then it just seemed like an essential part to bring that authentic community together and to try to connect people in a meaningful way.
1 (43s):
Steve, how are you doing today?
2 (45s):
I'm doing well. Looking forward to the conversation.
1 (48s):
Yeah. You know, Steve, when people visit Serenbe, we get a lot of questions that people can't quite put their finger on it of what are the things that make them feel so good about being here. That there's a real difference. And I think of it as it comes down to the details, we talk a lot about everything is everything and it's Serenbe. You just, people tend to have a feeling of calmness something's happening to them. And I think nature is a huge part of it and how everything has been sort of set within nature. But I also think that we are so used to a lot of, I don't know, visual pollution or cacophony of sounds or monotony of place in suburbs or cities sometimes, but I would love to hear just your high level thoughts before we dig into what those details are of what you think are the differences or what kind of questions you get asked when people show up at Serenbe?
2 (1m 47s):
Well, Monica years ago, when I finally realized that I was going to be a developer, I really started thinking about that and obviously a different way. And I thought about the places that I remembered or that I felt comfortable in. And I discovered it wasn't always the places that had the wow effect. Maybe as I went back and looked at them, it was the places, the authentic many times that tended to be older places, but it didn't necessarily have to be the AE. And I really started studying the difference between a plan to development that we've seen in the last several decades and towns that developed over time.
2 (2m 37s):
And I realized that was one of the largest differences, many times the plan developments, if you will, or any areas that are new, they tend to work what I would think of as too hard and make them too perfect. And thus, it feels perfect, but not necessarily authentic. And so this was a very delicate balance and remains a delicate balance always. And I think it'd be influenced that Ryan Gainey had on my life as far as landscaping. And of course, Ryan is known for writing the book, the well-placed weed, his gardens were always charming.
2 (3m 24s):
His personal garden was the only one that was annually on the Atlanta botanical garden show. And it was always the number one. And when you look carefully, there were weeds. It was not perfect in an absolute world thought, but people could relate to it because it looked authentic and they felt comfortable in it. And so, as we've said about making decisions at Sarah bay, I really tried to take that approach. And I think that makes a huge difference.
1 (3m 54s):
No, I think that's a really good point. I'll say, what is a weed? Right. You know, I think that's something that I learned from learning about Ryan. It's just a label that we've placed on it. And so some of those things we do want to cultivate right, or wild plants that can be more meadow light versus law. And we talk a lot about you do hear that, that, that to perfect. It's almost like a, Disneyfication love Disneyland, but it's a very specific, curated, organized space and those perfect lawns and the perfect fencing and all those things that some of these resort communities are absolutely gorgeous, but I think you're right.
1 (4m 37s):
They're perfectly manicured. And it is, it's like feels a little too perfect. One of the things that really struck me when we first moved were the lamp posts. Can you tell us a little bit about those? Like in really the street signs and street furniture? Cause that is very unusual.
2 (4m 52s):
It is, as we were looking to be authentic and also to honor artists and craftsmen, the streetlight was one of the things that just popped out at me because our civil engineers gave me the books that we should choose in a streetlight from. And they all looked like just standard streetlights that you see in a lot of places. And I asked for more books and unique books and I found unique streetlights really didn't exist. I decided we should create our own. And of course, everyone said, you couldn't do that.
2 (5m 32s):
And I found out that you really could. It's just, no one did because there were regulations you had to go through. And so we commissioned the artist, Robert Rousch to design a streetlight in Selborne and the commercial focus and Selborne is the arts. And so we wanted something that was not only designed by an artist, but related in some way to be arts and could be actually stand by itself as a piece of art. And we went through many, many sketches and renderings and even a paper machine mold of the streetlights, these things. It's not obvious. We, I was nervous, nervous until actually the second one was installed because we were really out there on the edge.
2 (6m 16s):
When you thought of streetlights, That has really set a tone. Now that in each community, we have a different streetlight that relates to the commercial intent of that Hamlet.
1 (6m 28s):
Do you find that now that you've done it, there are other developers who have emulated that, or have looked to do more unique street furniture and lighting.
2 (6m 39s):
I have seen some, but I haven't seen, I'm not aware of people. Who've actually commissioned artists and gone to the extent we have several more combinations of pieces and parts.
1 (6m 56s):
Yeah. And I think it does make a difference. And I think it sort of sets a tone, like you're saying, and a nod to the experience that you're going to have here. Did you feel like that was something that came out of hospitality by creating a more unique placemaking experience? Because the granite curbs are another one that really weren't used regularly in planned developments until you kind of re instigated with the city of Atlanta, we should be doing this again.
2 (7m 26s):
Well, hearing Dan, as we wanted to be authentic, I noticed places decades ago, I'll had granite curbs. We have granite quarries in Georgia. And so that seemed like a natural product. And we set about to do that. It just seemed like the right thing to do. Of course, when we were getting our final plans approved, I found that that was a roadblock, not because the county administrators didn't like the idea it's that no one had installed a granite curb in a new community in the last 30 years, I'd be 40 years or 50 years now. So they didn't have a proper installation recorded in your approval books.
2 (8m 11s):
And so we had to get our engineers to send our installation profile and then that had to be approved and entered into full county's official installation for granite curbs.
1 (8m 25s):
And do you find that that's sometimes the challenge is that the policy isn't there or maybe the city plan isn't there and once you change it, then anybody can go ahead and use granite curbs because it's been specified. Is that something that's easy to do that developers can do in other cities or residents can start to ask for those changes in their city?
2 (8m 46s):
Oh gosh, Monica, you know, it was, I was so naive as a developer and what you could and couldn't do. And so we set about to do all these great things, which were visually and environmentally, what was, we just saw the absolute and to my surprise, 50% of what you see it's Serenbe and today was not allowed 20 years ago. Of course, changing all the zoning for the overlay, allowed things like live works and 500 square foot houses and all these things that we do not see commercial across from single family, all those things that was in one sweeping Overlake.
2 (9m 26s):
But then there were so many things like the light fixtures and the granite curbs and buried power lines and no lawns and leaving the topography as it was rather than grading and flat for ease and leaving trees five feet from the foundation. I mean, it was just unbelievable from simple to complicated in stormwater, how we dealt with storm water. And so it was a challenge, but I was not a developer nor doing this from the perspective of being a developer. This started is an effort to save the rural area, this close to Atlanta.
2 (10m 9s):
And all of a sudden, as I stepped through that threshold with passion to develop the land, to show how you can have balanced growth. And I found myself in all these conversations and regulations and fortunate because of my investment in Midtown Atlanta in the seventies, I was able to use those real estate holdings to do ceremony. So I didn't have the interest clock ticking. And I understand why many well-intended developers simply can't fight the battles. Can't ask the questions because time is money and they can't take that extra month.
2 (10m 50s):
That extra thought that they might not get an approval for sixty, ninety, a hundred twenty days.
1 (10m 57s):
Yeah. That is interesting. Do you think that they could, and this is probably getting in the weeds for some people, but do you think that developers and landowners and planners can go to the city and do that work before the clock sort of ticking on that interest loan? Or is that all bundled together when you're doing a project?
2 (11m 14s):
No, you absolutely can. And some people are doing that and they are more aware. I had no idea that there were so many roadblocks to be environmentally or visually interesting, and that same just counterproductive, but that absolutely is the case. And we're finding many are bringing their regulators to ceremony to show the example. And so that makes it easier. If there is an example you point to, in many cases, we had trouble finding local examples,
1 (11m 50s):
Right? And so now at least you can be, or, and Serenbe can be some of that model for people to sort of point to and say, Hey, it worked or Hey, it's been done, or what about trying this? And I think that's exciting to be able to share that. And then, you know, one reason why we're doing this episode is to really share some of these ideas and solutions with the broader public. We talked about it a little bit, the granite curbs and lampposts and street signs, other things that people don't notice that it's very much affect how you feel or move through the space of ceremony, which is a very mundane thing. Trash cans, right?
1 (12m 30s):
When I lived in grant park, we had our Herbie Curby and we had to pull it down to the street, every whatever Tuesday or Midtown or wherever you are, pretty much, many, many places around the country, but you didn't do that. You didn't want them. So what did you do instead?
2 (12m 45s):
Visual pollution was as troubling to me is the environment and everything else. And so when I thought about trash, the big Herbie Kirby's is just a visual problem. Somebody always goes on vacation and leaves it out. And what have you. And then the noisy trucks that come into the community is a problem. And so as we looked at examples and what could be done, we found that old communities, there was such a thing as they buried trashcan. And if we had our own service, we could actually handle this for less money by collecting it. It was more of a personal experience and it's visually, almost not there.
2 (13m 28s):
As people walked down, drive down the streets, they don't see our trash cans because they're buried lid near the front usually. And we'd collect them with a small vehicle. That's not noisy. And that's taken to what we call roll off on the edge of the property. We have a yard that holds the recycling and the trash and the big trucks come and get that on a weekly schedule. And then we're able to take our compost to the farm. So it makes it easier for people to put their compost and their recycling all in the same place, their trash. So it makes sense on a lot of barriers,
1 (14m 4s):
Th two questions to follow up one. You mentioned older communities, where were those communities that you saw that we were inspired for? The very trash cans? It's super interesting.
2 (14m 14s):
I believe smarter for one right here on a Metro Atlanta. And I'm not sure if they still do, but 20 years ago they did.
1 (14m 23s):
That's so cool. Well, and the other thing I hadn't really ever thought about is the consolidation. One of the things that's also sort of a detail is the post offices or the posts where I go get our mail, right? Where we get our mail is consolidated to host houses or stations. If you will, what we have four or five of them throughout the community. And so you, as your pocket neighborhood, you go to the little posts house. And so that is energy efficient for post person. They're not having to stop and start and stop and start at every house it's all consolidated. So that saves energy from a gas and carbon admitting. But I would think that that visual or sorry, the actual pollution, same thing with the trash guys is that you're not using these huge sort of industrial trucks to stop and start at every house they're coming into one place and then they're leaving.
1 (15m 15s):
And that to me, I had never thought about that. That's a benefit as well.
2 (15m 19s):
Exactly.
1 (15m 20s):
One of the things as we're talking about like homes and placement of the cans, the other thing that is probably more people may know about just because we've been in the press for it country living called us the porch capital. I think reader's digest said that it was the unique thing, that all the houses are required to have some form of porch. And it's pulled very close to the streets. Where did you get that idea to have those houses sit closer to the street? We all have sidewalks here. What was that philosophy?
2 (15m 52s):
You look at any town built, developed prior to 1930, you'll see that condition. I lived in town, Atlanta at sixth and Myrtle, and every house had a porch. They were all pulled close to the street and we would take walks after dinner and talk to the neighbors on the porch with the air conditioning people don't use the porches like they used to. And so the porch has disappeared, but it's also disconnected us from the community in many ways. But if there is a large porch, many times people use it, especially in the evening or early morning. And then it just seemed like an essential part to bring that authentic community together and to try to connect people in a meaningful way.
2 (16m 40s):
And we really saw how important that was during the pandemic, because we did not lose those connections. Our kids were able to stay in touch with classmates by simply walking down the street and waving and talking to their classmates that were at a safe distance on the porch. That was the same for the adults. And I think we saw how important connections were as people were forced back into their communities. And those communities were torches have disappeared. I've heard stories of people pulling their lawn chairs from the backyard out to their driveways in the front yard, simply for those connections that from porches provide
1 (17m 20s):
<inaudible>. One of the other things I think is interesting about the houses is Serenbe has a design review, two of them, one for the landscape and one for the homes. And I wanted to talk about that. It's not just the architecture, right? So the architecture is very specific, but talk a little bit about how the houses are set on the land and how the Ridge caps, the tops of the houses speak to each other. What's the philosophy there. And where does that idea
2 (17m 49s):
From? We realized that how how's this flow give you what you feel my time living in Midtown Atlanta, and then Ansley park. It really taught me a lot about placement and massing Ansley park was developed in the early 19 hundreds. And then during the 1980s. So people started tearing down houses here and there. And I specifically remember when a traditional tutor house, I believe it was, was torn down and the approval was for a very contemporary house. And there was a lot of folks up in arms. And that houses built basically in the same footprint as the house that had been there before.
2 (18m 34s):
And it was about the same size in height and by massing, I mean, you know, how high and in the presence it had to the street and it looked fine and people liked it. And we saw other times that people tore houses down or added onto them. And it became bigger and awkward. And even if they were the same architecture. And so I realized how the houses flow on the street. And so we have that gradual change and Phil tab brought the whole concept of transects, which really helps us give the pattern that is we move from a rural transit, rural area where there are no houses.
2 (19m 16s):
And we come into the first area, we call it the first transect of housing. And in those areas, we place the houses back from the street and there are no curves. And then as you move in closer to the center of our hamlets or the developed area, we start pulling the street, the houses in closer. And so for instance, in Selborne, you'll see on the right, if you're coming in from the wildflower meadow, those houses are stepping up from the stream and your first house is a, one-story about two and a half feet below grade, which is something you rarely see today.
2 (19m 56s):
But you see in any condition pre 1930. And then on that side, each house sets up a little higher and comes a little closer to the front sidewalk on the opposite side, those houses are on the hill and they step down from the hill. So by the time you get to the next intersection, the houses start to feel like an urban wall. And the rich calves, the roofs gradually are getting a couple of feet bigger as it goes. And by doing it in this way in a little over a quarter mile, we've gone from a one-story house below grade to a four-story of work.
2 (20m 41s):
And it feels very natural. You go into areas where you have a two-story next to a three-story and a one-story it's sort of these saw to look, and it just doesn't feel as calm or pleasant.
1 (20m 55s):
That is interesting. And there's also sort of a sense of discovery with the streets. And that's not so much the transect, but the way the streets are laid out there, and B is not in a grid pattern, which is wonderful for cities, various simple numbered you're in New York, it's completely helps you with wayfinding, but we don't really have a grid with our streets. Can you talk a little bit about why that is and what that sense of discovery that happens because of the way they're laid out?
2 (21m 26s):
Yes. We really wanted to respond to the natural environment and the topography and sale tab or did as Dr. Don English village really led this effort. And if you're in England, you'll see the, it isn't necessarily the grid it's, it can be, but many times your villages and hamlets out in the country, but might've followed the cow paths or, and the cow Pash horse who we followed the Ridge that made sense with your stormwater. And so, as we really started honing in on a plan, and of course we at first were thinking the beautiful hilltops and ceremony that we would develop there.
2 (22m 10s):
But then when we realized that if we did that, we would be cutting the tree canopy that people saw and replacing with houses and roofs. And then it would be much more appealing if we nestled the houses down in the valley. And when we looked at doing that because of our rainfall, we have a lot of smaller tributaries. And so we had to deal with this stream coming through the natural landscape and suddenly it became a very natural thing to put what we call an omega here. And if you have been to the Amalfi coast, there's a perfect place where they had to deal with the topography.
2 (22m 52s):
And those are all Amigos. You don't think about it around the little days. And when you really start looking at places that are centuries old, they responded to nature in the same way. And you see these horse shoe of mega shapes and then many places. So it's not that unique, but we also realized we wound up pedestrian community, which many of those places are. And so there is a pedestrian grid, but a wandering street
1 (23m 21s):
Before. Cause I do want to talk about the trails and you're right there is that sort of pedestrian grid and trails that cut across those a Mega's. But one of the things that I think is always kind of a funny thing is how do you name the streets? Because I've had a couple of conversations with you guys over time, as things have gotten to names, and it's not as simple or easy as we think, can you tell us, like, how does that process work? If I'm building a community and I have to go to the city or Fulton county, the county and give them my street names, like there's a lot of requirements around it.
2 (23m 55s):
There are, you have to have never won a name that doesn't relate to other names in the general area. So all your emergency vehicles, aren't going to be confused. And so that is a huge piece that you have to deal with. You have to get creative, but at the same time, we didn't want to look like a development where you see these places, that name, all those streets after a flower or all their streets after a fruit. So we wanted something that has authentic meaning to us, our main street that snakes through the community is obviously Sarah and belay, but the first street, which doesn't connect all the Hamlins, we decided to call that Selborne because it was Selborne England that influenced so much of what we've done.
2 (24m 40s):
So our two main streets really are cell barn and Serenbe.
1 (24m 44s):
Yeah. And I love that. And I do think it's interesting that they have to be, you know, you can't duplicate and you have to get kind of creative sometimes to do it.
2 (24m 52s):
And many people don't realize that we have three streets named after our three daughters. So Garnet Ridge is after Garney Q loop is obviously Quinn and the gust, Elaine is Cara's middle name.
1 (25m 5s):
That's right. And you've got one named after there's tab named after Phil tab and then Ryan Gainey. Anyway,
2 (25m 11s):
That's correct. And Rausch Ridge is Robert Rousey artists on all the streetlights. So we've really used the street names to honor people. Who've had a key influence and their thumbprint is all over Serenbe. And so this is a way to recognize this more permanently.
1 (25m 29s):
Let's talk about the trails. You know, we sort of started the conversation, talking about Ryan Gainey and the well-placed weed. And I do think that it is something where so many places are trying to control nature and put it in its box. And that would be included a lawn. I mean, I grew up in a suburb that had big old lawns in front of the houses and it looks beautiful and we know the challenges with lawns, but I think that so much of what we're doing, I really liked how you said responding to nature, because we really talked about building with and connecting people to nature. But I like that responding with nature because it feels like more of a reciprocal relationship.
1 (26m 10s):
I think most people know at this point that 70% of the land is saved. We build densely on the remaining 30 of that 70 it's green space, including a farm or a field. It couldn't be a playground, but it could be a soccer field. Is that right?
2 (26m 26s):
Well, it depends on the definition of a playground, but a much simpler, I think, to think about it because we're, we're talking about a regulation for 40,000 acres. So this is the entire overlay for the county initially, and then the city of Chad Hills. And so the simple way to think about it is we can disturb 30% for our housing and commercial and the 70% has to remain for anything that could be approved in agricultural Selone. And so that's basically yeah. Grass fields. So yeah, a soccer field could be considered at Grassfield when you think about it, if the playground is really organized, not so of course, you know, I think of playgrounds is the tree house out in the middle of the woods and not as a fence playground that has to be in the regulation next to the school that could not
1 (27m 23s):
Well, and I know that you speak of your seven years in the wilderness. When you retired, before you started developing serenbe, you went out and just started cutting trails and you knew a lot of the creeks were there, but there's a major Creek called Cedar Creek that is here that has been here. But tell me about the tributaries, because you've recently named some of the tributaries, like tell me a little bit about the experience of cutting the trails, how important they are to the community and then naming the tributaries. Cause you don't have to go through anybody to name those tributaries, right? Cause it's on your land.
2 (28m 0s):
That's right. In my, what's referred to as, by seven years in the wilderness, six of that was my, my first six years in retirement. And then that seventh year of retirement was that year that I was like, oh, what can we do to save this land? So when you're trying to match up the timelines and that's how that is. So it took, it was actually a year into this concern that I realized I was going to be a developer. But in those years I was fortunately 49 years old when we sold the company and we moved full time to the farm. And when we started putting in the gardens and I was quite active and as we added property, we started with 60 acres that was mostly pasture.
2 (28m 41s):
And then we put the old farm back together. There were some old trails and old timber trails that had overgrown. And so I reopened those. And then as we started adding more Landa, neighboring priests, the old shell property came available. And then I had to figure out how do I connect our trails to some old trails that they had and how do we open those? And I had a big, massive Ferguson and I would go out and climb trees to try to figure out where a trail was going and tie red tape on these trees, then get on my Massey Ferguson and try to follow those tapes because some of those little trails kind of wandered here and there. And that was because I maybe got lost my direction out
1 (29m 22s):
Woods
2 (29m 23s):
And Cedar Creek really confused the heck out of me because I didn't really realize that our property, that it ran south. And then in other places, it ran north and it ran east around west to practice and goes in circles. And that was very confusing when you're out there thinking it's all running Southwest towards the Chattahoochee and it eventually did, but it took a meandering path to do that. And we do have the tributaries and as we've developed and have footpaths against some of them, we realized it was getting exhausting and confusing to try to describe which tree Rytary we were talking about.
2 (30m 4s):
So we've recently named them. And the main one, it comes through cell born and creates are two waterfalls on this way to Cedar Creek. We have named that peak Creek after the peak family and they remain our neighbors today. The overlay is secure that they can stay on their farm land that is there. And the eighth generation is now being raised to on this land. So that's fun. And, and that Creek actually comes up out of the ground on the edge of their property. Another is shell stream and that is after the shell family, they were major property owners in the area.
2 (30m 44s):
And a lot of what is now Grange was the shell property. And many shell people are in the general area. And in fact, Simon shell built our rural studio houses at the art farm, and he's doing some other work at Serenbe. So it's, it's fun to have the generational families involved in various ways in the Serenbe area, the smallest stream that runs from the back to the end, we've named that for the Barnes family. And they're the ones who bought the land in 1905 that we think of as the farmhouse in the end that Serenbe and they built those buildings and they lived on a property for three generations and the descendants are still living in the area as well.
2 (31m 24s):
So those are the three historical, the one stream that runs through what we call prom field. I'm not as familiar with the family and where that stream comes from because it comes really close to our property where it originates. And so we decided there was a lot of history to the name prom fields. And so we've called that the prom field stream,
1 (31m 44s):
As we wrap up, definitely jump in. If there's other things that you know, we've done a whole episode on landscaping, edible, native medicinal, but are there other questions that you get a lot about the details or that other Placemakers and developers want to know that we haven't covered?
2 (32m 2s):
Hi, Monica said that's not a wrap-up question. That is the opening for the next conversation.
1 (32m 8s):
Okay, perfect. I do know here's a wrap-up question. I do know that one question you get asked a lot by people and maybe this is a short one. What was it like raising kids in farmhouse? That's a different detail, but one that as somebody who's raised kids here, I don't know if you want to answer that as our stepping out question. Okay.
2 (32m 30s):
Well, yeah, happy to. And I'm constantly thankful that I had the courage to follow my intuition. And we moved our kids to the far, when they were 6, 8, 10. And that is a pivotal age, I think because they were excited, at least garni and Carol were excited. Quinn still thought the farm was dirty and she was upset. She had lost her Barbie room and a few of those things, but they were still going along with us as parents. And it seemed really great. And it was, and they spent time out in the forest and the fields and nature.
2 (33m 12s):
And we had been there about four or five months and, and one night at dinner, I just checked in with them. Are you glad we moved to the farm? Because we had a great place in the city with the pools and it was convenient. And we had an acre fence jarred in Ansley, which is unheard of in the city. And Garney looked at her sisters and looked back to me and said, yes, the freedom. Now I expect them to say, yeah, we have a horse. We have bunnies. We have all these things. And it took me back that she would answer that freedom. And she says, you know, in the city, we always knew you were looking out the window when we were in the backyard and could never go out the front door to ride our bicycles without an adult.
2 (34m 1s):
And I didn't realize how uptight we were. And I especially did not realize that they noticed it. That was reinforcing to me. Thank goodness that we did that. It was, it was just an intuition that I saw how they responded when we were at the farm on the weekend. I didn't have any logical reason and I couldn't answer friends other than we just decided we were going to do it. And so it was years later that Richard Ludes book, last child in the woods came out and as people sent me copies or ask if I'd seen it. And I read that and after I finished it, I sent Richard move a note and said, thank you for giving voice to what I intuitively knew.
2 (34m 43s):
And that is a movement that is affecting children. And if there's anyone listening that is not familiar with the book last child in the woods, or the movement of children in nature network, check into it, if you have children or grandchildren, because yeah, it is important.
1 (35m 2s):
Yeah. That's a great wrap-up because it is, it's like the details that matter. And that is a detail that sometimes you can't put your finger on why the kids are happy and have this increased confidence, but I definitely attributed to the freedom and the ability to just confidently move around the neighborhood and sort of feel ownership of it that it's their place. And I think a lot of that has to do with how you built it and the placemaking. So thank you, Steve.
2 (35m 31s):
Thanks. Look forward to talking more.
1 (35m 33s):
All right. Thank you so much. Bye. You guys.