John Lanier Continues & Expands on Ray C. Anderson's Legacy

Today's episode features a incredible conversation with John Lanier about turning fear into passion for action, why we have to stop the "take, make and waste" economic model, and the regenerative highway making waves in south Georgia.

We also talk about his new book, the reissued "Mid Course Correction" that shares the impact and legacy of his grandfather, Ray Anderson, founder of the sustainable carpet tile company Interface.

John shares how Paul Hawken's words drove Ray to tears by showing him the dark side of his industry...how businesses and industry are causing the vast amount of environmental degradation we see across the world AND that those same businesses are ALSO able to solve those environmental problems.

Finally, John tells the story of how a simple customer question changed his grandfather, who then changed his company, and how that created a ripple effect on the environment and on Serenbe.

Definitions, People + Organizations Mentioned

Take, Make & Waste Model

A charrette is an intensive planning session where citizens, designers and others collaborate on a vision for development. It provides a forum for ideas and offers the unique advantage of giving immediate feedback to the designers. More importantly, it allows everyone who participates to be a mutual author of the plan.

Georgia Tech

Mary Anne Lanier

Harriet Langford & Phil Langford

The Ray Highway

Janine Benyus

Biomimicry Institute

Andrew Winston

Kari Pei

Project Drawdown

Ray Day

Fortune 100 Company

LEED

Biomimicry

Tomorrow's Child poem

Ray C. Anderson

Southface

Paul Hawken's The Ecology of Commerce

Tomorrow's Child

Patagonia

Inn at Serenbe

Rocky Mountain Institute

Transcript

Monica Olsen (1s):
Hey guys, it's Monica here. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast that I've started with my very good friend, Jennifer Walsh called Biophilic Solutions. Our last season of Serenbe Stories, Building a Biophilic Movement, was so popular that we decided to dedicate an entire podcast to it. Every other week Jennifer and I will sit down with leaders in the growing field of biophilia. We'll talk about local and global solutions to help nurture the living, social, and economic systems that we all need to sustain future generations. More often than not, nature has the answers. You can find Biophilic Solutions on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe and follow us today so you don't miss an episode.

Monica Olsen (41s):
All right, now let's get back to Serenbe Stories. Serenbe is a place where people live, work, learn, and play in celebration of life's beauty. And we're here to share the stories that connect residents and guests to each other and to nature. This is Serenbe Stories.

Monica Olsen (1m 23s):
You won't want to miss today's episode. It features an incredible conversation with John Lanier about how fears can turn into passion for action. What is a regenerative highway, why we have to stop the take, make and waste economic model, and his new book, the reissued Mid-Course Correction , that shares the impact and legacy of his grandfather, Ray Anderson, who was the founder of the sustainable carpet tile company Interface. John also shares how Paul Hawkins' words drove Ray to tears by showing him the dark side of his industry, how businesses and industry are really causing the vast amount of environmental degradation we see across the world. But those same businesses are also able to solve those environmental problems. Finally, John tells the story of how a simple customer question changed his grandfather, who changed his company, that created a ripple effect on the environment, including right here in Serenbe. Before we get into our conversation, let's hear from our sponsor.

Monica Olsen (2m 19s):
Serenbe Stories is brought to you by The Inn at Serenbe. The Inn is nestled in the rolling countryside of bucolic Serenbe, where guests can walk on the 15 miles of trails through preserved forest land, the wildflower meadow, and the animal village. You can relax by the pool, hot tub, or in rocking chairs on wraparound porch, play on the croquet lawn, swings, and in-ground trampolines, connect with nature and each other all while staying in luxurious rooms on The Inn grounds or within the community of Serenbe. Book your stay today at serenbeinn.com.

Monica Olsen (2m 48s):
Today, we have a really exciting guest. Steve and I welcome John Lanier, who is the executive director of the Ray C. Anderson foundation, and also on the board of Southface. Prior to his work at the foundation, he studied at the University of Virginia where he received a degree in the history of economics.

Monica Olsen (3m 3s):
He went on to get his law degree, which is in a very exciting topic of tax law, which he used when he worked for one of the top firms here in Atlanta. Isn't that right, John?

John Lanier (3m 11s):
So exciting, as exciting of a topic as you can imagine.

Monica Olsen (3m 15s):
But we're super excited to have him here. So I want to welcome Steve back as well as John, to the podcast.

Steve Nygren (3m 20s):
Thanks Monica. And welcome, John. Great to have you with us.

John Lanier (3m 22s):
Thank you. And good to be with you friends.

Monica Olsen (3m 23s):
One of the things that I always ask everybody when we first sort of get in here is sort of how did you come into Serenbe or start to get to know Steve? And this is a much bigger question for you and your family than a lot of our guests. So I don't even know who wants to start cause you know, when maybe Ray came into your world, I'm not even sure how old you were as Ray C. Anderson's grandson so we can kind of start there.

Steve Nygren (3m 46s):
Well, I think, I think John and I figured this out one day. And so sitting across from John truly makes me start to feel like an elder because I think I first met John when he was about seven or eight years old.

John Lanier (3m 58s):
Yeah, I think that's right.

Monica Olsen (4m 1s):
Yeah. You were the original tomorrow's child.

John Lanier (4m 3s):
Yes, I was. Steve and my grandfather, Ray Anderson, were dear friends. And there, there may be more of a story to tell there, here in a moment, but when Ray Anderson passed away in 2011, I would say that that's when the friendship that you had so closely with my grandfather really became a friendship with me and the rest of Ray's family. And in the years, since then, it's been a real joy to get to know, not just Steve, but the entire family.

John Lanier (4m 40s):
And to come to experience this place that you have built. Professionally our, our foundation does quite a bit down here at Serenbe, but I, as an individual have fallen in love with this place. It's been a really a joy.

Monica Olsen (4m 57s):
And you have two kids of your own now.

John Lanier (5m 0s):
I do. So I have a three and a half year old little boy and a one and a half year old little girl. And they enjoy every bit of being down here. That, that wonder and awe that young children have when they're outside and like really outside, not just looking at a tree, but amongst the trees, I find that their, their faces change and their demeanor softens, and they soak up everything that Serenbe has to offer when we spend time down here together as a family.

Steve Nygren (5m 32s):
And John, his family, they have a lot, they're going to build a house here.

Monica Olsen (5m 35s):
Oh I love to hear that. 

John Lanier (5m 36s):
We will. My wife and I, Chantel, we, we are so excited that Serenbe, it's a part of our present from time to time, but it will be a part of our future on a daily basis.

Monica Olsen (5m 48s):
That's great to hear. So maybe I should sort of set up a little bit more Ray, and sort of his legacy. He's been called sort of a radical industrialist. Really created one of the leading carpet manufacturing companies in the world called Interface, but he had what has been kind of called the spear in the heart moment, right? And I think he was probably in his middle years during that time.

John Lanier (6m 11s):
60 years old. 60 years old.

Monica Olsen (6m 14s):
Okay, where he realized that, actually, I should state that he read Paul Hawken's book, The Ecology of Commerce, and it basically just changed the way he thought about how he should be running his business. Do you want to talk a little bit about that? I don't know either one of you. I mean, I think it's a really interesting story.

John Lanier (6m 30s):
It, it was, it's legendary in many respects. In his 60th year of life, Ray was starting to ask really personal questions about his purpose, because he had succeeded beyond most people's wildest imaginations in creating Interface, this carpet tile manufacturing company. So the year is 1994 and it's a $600 million a year company with manufacturing around the globe. And he felt like he had done what he was meant to do in that respect. He'd built the company.

John Lanier (7m 9s):
But, that year was when some customers started asking Interface salespeople, "Hey, what's Interface doing for the environment?" and the company didn't have a good answer at the time. So they said, well, we need a task force to come together and answer this question to give our salespeople the, the, the right tools to respond to environmentally conscious consumers. Ray you're our founder, come give the kickoff talk for this taskforce. And Ray didn't know what to say. He didn't have his own environmental vision. So that's what led him to pick up The Ecology of Commerce. An employee had put it on his desk and he was desperate for inspiration. And he read this book straight through in one night and was moved to tears. Because the book, the central thesis of The Ecology of Commerce is that business and industry is causing the vast majority of environmental degradation that we see across the world.

John Lanier (8m 5s):
But business and industry is the only sector, large enough, well, enough organized, well enough capitalized to fundamentally solve the problems. So for Ray, it was the first time that somebody had shown him a dark side to his business. And he didn't like that. And when he, when he, he could never unknow what Paul Hawken's words taught him. And that is that all businesses would eventually have to pursue sustainability. And he set out from that day forward, reading that book in the summer of 1994 to make his business as environmentally sustainable as possible. He was way ahead of the curve.

Monica Olsen (8m 45s):
Way ahead of the curve. And I think, you know, one of the things in the book that I read, which I thought was interesting is that, you know, there's at that time and we still have it today, unfortunately, a lot of our businesses, that it's a very take, make and waste model. This linear model that I think, I don't know if Ray spoke of that or Paul, but it's in the book. And it was fascinating to me because he's really, or Ray really took the company into a circular model. Can you talk a little bit about what that means?

John Lanier (9m 11s):
Yes, it's, it's what's today been called the circular economy. Though it's it's been around for oh a 3.8 billion years, it's nature's way. The way that humanity has designed its economic system is one in which we take stuff from the earth, we make stuff out of it, and then it gets used and eventually wasted to a landfill. That's that linear piece, that straight line from the take make waste. It is fundamentally unsustainable because eventually we're going to run out of the materials to make the stuff or in the process of extracting all of that we will

John Lanier (9m 50s):
So fundamentally degrade the natural systems that we, and all of the living world, depend on. So there's a limit to that. What would be the other way? It's this circular model. Can we redesign the way our commercial systems work, at small scale and large scale, to function the way that nature does? To function in a way where there is no waste and no non-renewable materials are extracted from the readily available environment. Two things that humans do, a lot of that nature never does.

John Lanier (10m 31s):
So the circular economy framework is entirely geared around trying to imitate natural systems and how they move materials around and assemble them into higher goods and disassemble them within the ecosystems. Can we do the same thing? Ray was at the forefront of helping to show what's possible when a business takes seriously trying to create a circular economy model.

Monica Olsen (10m 59s):
Yeah, no, I think it's super, super important. And I think that sort of, we hear about it today of like conscious capitalism or better capitalism or, you know, doing well and doing good. And I think, you know, Ray walked the walk, right. And I think we have really great examples. Like, you know, I can think of Patagonia, you know, or I'm sure there's others, you know, that are also following it. But tell me how he was able to, I know it's probably a big story, but like really succinctly, you know, how was he able to take carpet, which is, you know, something that's made out of, you know, not a renewable resource

John Lanier (11m 32s):
Oil. It's made out of oil.

Monica Olsen (11m 34s):
Yeah. I know, I know. It's that word. Ugh right? And, and you know, this sort of dirty thing, but he really figured out how to, you know, take it down to almost like a net zero, right? We're getting there right?

John Lanier (11m 46s):
They, he would give credit, and appropriately so, to the people of Interface in helping to solve some problems that had seemed insolvable previously. Yeah, so the company knew they wanted to keep making carpet, that that hadn't changed. So how can you create a circular economic model for carpet tile manufacturing? Well, if we can make it from something other than oil, that would be great. And so part of it is that the company has increased the content of bio-based materials in their product where appropriate without sacrificing performance characteristics. But that's just one piece of it.

John Lanier (12m 27s):
The bigger piece of it is designing the entire product across its entire useful life. To eventually be something that can be broken down into its component parts. And this is one of the fundamentals of design for the circular economy is designing for disassembly. So Interface in collaboration with the parts of their supply chain and with some inventors, they literally had to invent technology that hadn't existed before, figured out how to separate the various parts of carpet tile so that when somebody was done with it, if Interface got it back, they could take the face fiber off, the top part that people walk on, send that back to their yarn supplier, have that melted back down and re extruded as new face fiber.

John Lanier (13m 14s):
And then the backing material of it, Interface themselves figured out how to crumple it up, warm it by putting it in an oven, roll it to compress it into new sheets of carpet that had the same performance characteristics. It turns out that, yeah, it might start as oil, but once we've extracted that oil, can we continue to cycle it endlessly getting a new carpet tile at the end of the useful life of the old carpet tile? If we can do that, then maybe it's okay that it's made from oil because going forward, the vision of Ray and the people of Interface was to be able to make their products without taking another drop of oil from the earth.

Monica Olsen (13m 56s):
Oh, that's a great mission.

John Lanier (13m 57s):
They're not there yet, but that's still part of the vision.

Monica Olsen (14m 0s):
Well, and I know when we bought the carpet carpet tiles from Floor, Interface's floor brand, I was so impressed that, you know, once we, like, we redid our floors to take them to wood and I was able to call them up, they sent me boxes for free with shipping labels. I packed it all up. I mean, you know, I had a stack the size of my, the height of me, you know, and they came and picked them up, just put them on your front porch, like all paid for. It was really, really an impressive, you know, experience with a company that made me very loyal to it where I'm like, why would I buy from anybody else? I feel that way about Patagonia too. I'd prefer to only buy from them.

John Lanier (14m 37s):
Yeah. But they're not just doing that to make you get warm and fuzzy feelings like you're an extra special person. They have optimized their supply chain to want to get back old carpet. So heck yeah, you got old carpet? They will go the extra mile to get it back from you. And if you can make things easy for customers to help a business meet their sustainability goals, like increasing recycled content, you're more likely to find success.

Monica Olsen (15m 4s):
Right. So I want to sort of think about, and just bring it back real quickly to things we've talked about with Steve in the past is, you know, Ray was so instrumental in really pushing Steve through sort of a threshold of passion here. And so want to just sort of like tell that story again and just see if you have any memory of that at all? Or, you know, hearing about any of that happening at all in the family? But I do think it's so important to sort of, you know, honor, you know, the vision and inspiration that he was for you, Steve. So that, that time, you know, I think it was, what, the fall of 2000, he brought thought leaders together here?

Steve Nygren (15m 44s):
That's right. That's right. That was, well as John said, Ray had been a dear friend and from when we were an Ansley- and just to give you an idea of that kind of guy, he was, I remember that it was Quinn's christening. So those people that listening that have gotten to know the family and it was Quinn's christening. And we had heard that Ray couldn't possibly be there because he was in Stockholm. I think that's when he was working with the steps.

John Lanier (16m 13s):
The Natural Step. Yeah. I know the folks you're talking about.

Steve Nygren (16m 16s):
And moments before the christening started, the door opened and Ray walked in. He had figured out how to get back here. So that's the kind of person he, he was. Just connections,

Steve Nygren (16m 28s):
People were as important as his business, or more important. So, and then when we came out to Serenbe, and of course we were doing the environmental things and Ray loved that we were recycling and doing all these things, but we were just at our home and then it became an inn. And so Ray started using Serenbe for his meetings and then his birthday parties. So that would have been what, his 60th and 70th would it have been?

John Lanier (16m 55s):
Yeah. I don't think I was invited to those. I couldn't drink yet. That would have been a real bummer.

Steve Nygren (17m 0s):
So various events. And so I, yeah, I forget which events that, that maybe all the grand children showed up at. So that was the relationship. And then at dinner one night, when I was in this process of buying land to protect our backyard, I said to Ray, you know all the smart people around the world, who could help me figure out how to save this greater area? And that's when Ray asked the Rocky Mountain Institute and Ray and the Rocky Mountain Institute assembled the 23 people that showed up here in September of 2000. And that really launched the thought process. Although there was no one there that was actually going to help me. There was a lot of consultants, but I was thinking there,

Steve Nygren (17m 42s):
I was going to have a daddy come in and say, this is what we're going to do and here's how it's going to happen. And it's through that frustration with Ray, Ray there wasn't anybody, you know, this, this was even more problems. I'm a little more depressed. And, and it was Ray who gradually suggested I go here, go there. And, and then all of a sudden, if not you, who, if not now, when, and all of a sudden I noticed at some point, Ray had pushed me through that threshold. And I was on the passion path that there was no turning back, no matter how many obstacles we hit. And, and that was purely Ray. He was that voice that, that pushed me to there.

John Lanier (18m 16s):
I don't know that I've ever told you this- maybe I have, if, so, I'm going to tell you again- how jealous I am of you, that you got to have that type of experience with Ray. I mean, you were in, in effect your working with him on this issue that for the last 17 years of his life was his reason for being. And I know others may feel jealous of me that I got to spend so much quality time with, with Ray, this amazing man. But for me, he was Daddy Ray. He was the, the guy who took me to sporting events and who wanted to know how math class was going. I never had that real experience of working with him on something so important as what Interface was trying to do or so important as what you've created here at Serenbe.

John Lanier (19m 9s):
And I will never have that chance. And that's okay that that's not, I'm not trying to rewrite history, but I I'll admit to being a bit jealous of you that you had that experience. I wish I could have as well.

Steve Nygren (19m 20s):
Rightfully so, because it was a rich experience. How old were you John? When he died?

John Lanier (19m 24s):
I was 25. I had gone straight through from undergrad to law school. I loved my seven years in Charlottesville, Virginia, but then it was time to come home. I sat for the bar exam here in Georgia. I think it was 10 days before Ray passed away. So I was 25 about to start a career as, as a tax attorney and was really fortunate that it worked out that I was here for those last few precious days with him and that after he passed away, my job hadn't started yet. So I got to grieve with my family and not feel any obligations to, to be elsewhere. As you recall, there was quite a spectacle associated with celebrating Ray Anderson's life after he passed away.

John Lanier (20m 12s):
It was nice to be a part of that.

Steve Nygren (20m 14s):
Oh boy.

John Lanier (20m 15s):
He had a tremendous funeral at his Methodist church that was packed to the gills and the two people who eulogized him were my mother and Paul Hawken. And it was really special to hear them. And then a few weeks later Interface wanted to have the opportunity to celebrate his life with the people of, of Interface. And they put on this massive memorial down in LaGrange, where, where Ray lived for so many years and where he founded his company. And it was, it was a big old party bait.

John Lanier (20m 51s):
They even brought the Georgia Tech marching band up on stage to play the fight song in Ray's memory.

Monica Olsen (20m 57s):
Oh my God. That's great.

Steve Nygren (20m 59s):
I was incredible. Both ceremonies, yeah. But yeah John, I know your granddad was proud of you, but if he could just see you now, I mean, you have really stepped into his voice with new issues and have taken that, that passion and that place, that, that Ray was in pushing people forward and, and bringing the issues into today's environment and what we need to do. So wherever he is or how it could be, he would be so proud of what you've done.

John Lanier (21m 30s):
I hope so. And thank you for saying it. I guess I'll push back slightly and say, I'm not filling issues or speaking with his voice, many of us are. He- no one person could have replaced what Ray Anderson represented in this movement, but all of us together can advance the work and take it in the direction he would have done his part to take it in. I feel extraordinarily privileged to work with my family, to feel connected to my grandfather's legacy, to support tremendous environmental organizations with grants from our foundation, and to feel a genuine and authentic part of the environmental community here in, in Atlanta, in particular, but across Georgia. I didn't earn that.

John Lanier (22m 22s):
I just had a really cool grandfather. So I am particularly grateful.

Monica Olsen (22m 27s):
One of the, kind of brings me back to when the foundation was formed. It was formed before he passed away. But then your mom and your aunt had no idea that the foundation was sort of going to be dropped in their lap, if you will. And I, when I read the, there's a book out that was your grandfather's book, and then you've done a new forward that's just come out called Mid-Course Correction. And in reading it, it was really interesting to read about how, you know, when, under the lawyer said, you know, Hey, by the way,

John Lanier (22m 58s):
This is happening?

Monica Olsen (22m 59s):
This is happening. And you're taking over

John Lanier (23m 0s):
Oh I'll tell you that story.

Monica Olsen (23m 1s):
I want, yeah, so I would love to hear that story.

John Lanier (23m 2s):
Don't think that this is all hero worship. I'm about to say something bad about my grandfather. I think he made a mistake. He, he created the Ray C. Anderson foundation in the in 1989. It was an estate planning tool. It was his way of being able to do the charitable giving that he cared about, but to still be able to have control over the management of those charitable assets and how grants would be made from it. But he didn't really engage his two daughters, my mother and my aunt in that practice of philanthropy, it was kind of just what, whatever Ray and Pat, his wife, decided to do with that grant making throughout.

John Lanier (23m 48s):
It would have been nice if he had engaged Mary Anne and Harriet, because when his estate plan was read after he passed away- again, he had not told anybody what his plan was- they found out that the majority of his estate was going to this family foundation and that along with Pat, my mother and my aunt would be trustees of the foundation. I am very fortunate to come from a family that understood what a gift that was from Ray. And from the beginning they did, there was no resentment that it hadn't been left to them or anything like that. Far from. But they were, they were unprepared. And they had to quickly learn what it meant to be an effective philanthropist and how to comply with the tax code.

John Lanier (24m 36s):
That's where I came in. That's how I could help from those early days. Ray also didn't leave any instructions on what to do with it. And that too would have been nice if, if there had been a clear direction for all of us as a family to go in. But there's wisdom here. I will give him credit because by not ruling from the grave, by leaving this completely blank slate that our family with our advisory board, Steve is one of those members, we feel like we had the freedom to explore the best ways to advance Ray's legacy without feeling like we had to follow to a tee instructions from the man.

John Lanier (25m 20s):
And there's a, a creative process that goes into trying to create that vision for advancing a legacy that's rewarding to go through that work. And it allows you to feel in many respects, closer to Ray. I know as an individual, I feel closer to him having done the work of leading his foundation and, and adding chapters to a book that he wrote. I've gotten to know him in ways that are much deeper and more special because of how he chose to leave his estate to this foundation.

Steve Nygren (25m 56s):
And probably as a result, two of the big things might not have been spelled out. He could never have imagined what was happening with highways or maybe the prize. You want to share those two?

John Lanier (26m 7s):
Yeah. So the, the highway piece, this one you're exactly right. If, if we had tried to follow a playbook that Ray had left to us, there's no way that this would have been in the playbook. In the summer of 2014, our family was honored to have a portion of interstate 85 in west Georgia named for Ray. So from exit one to exit 18 connecting west point Georgia, where Ray was born to LaGrange, Georgia, where he created his company that is now the Ray C Anderson Memorial highway. My aunt, Harriet Langford, is the one who led the charge in getting that done and getting the state legislature to approve it with some great partners along the way.

John Lanier (26m 51s):
But she's also the one who basically woke up in a cold sweat one night realizing after the fact that she'd just put the greenest industrialist's name on a dirty highway. And what came from that one moment of, of fear, and it's turned into passion for action, is this sense that well, we have to do for the Ray C. Anderson Memorial highway, exactly what Ray and the people of Interface did for that, that industrial manufacturing company. Interface imagined what a sustainable company would look like, and then tried to create it. The Ray, the nickname

John Lanier (27m 33s):
And now the name of the organization leading this work around these 18 miles of interstate, the Ray is imagining what a sustainable, if not regenerative portion of interstate would look like. And in the few short years that have come of them bringing technologies to west Georgia, putting them on this highway, and imagining what's possible, creating this living laboratory, they've gotten recognition from around the planet for what they are trying to do. That has come out of the spirit of Ray Anderson, for sure, in this respect carried on by my aunt Harriet and my uncle Phil, and the folks who were leading the Ray.

Steve Nygren (28m 15s):
And so that's, you know, to clean up 18 miles and make them proud of it, it's actually going to lead to changing the highway systems around the world. And they're working now with literally a department of transportation around the world, not just in the United States, but everywhere. It's, it's incredible. It, it may end up being even a bigger story than the carpet story.

John Lanier (28m 36s):
It could be because when you look at the scale of negative environmental impact from transportation, that's way bigger than negative environmental impact from carpet manufacturing. It could be a model that creates a scale of change that certainly more than we thought we would be capable of, but you can stumble into some pretty huge success when you just keep putting that next foot forward.

Steve Nygren (29m 2s):
And there's some great stories out of the prize.

John Lanier (29m 5s):
Yeah, this is, thanks for giving us a chance to, to talk about this one as well. This, this idea that I'm about to talk about was dreamt up with our advisory board. So Steve has had a front row seat from the beginning. In the early ish days of our foundation,

John Lanier (29m 21s):
One of the ways we thought about advancing Ray's legacy was, Hey, can we have an award that has Ray's name on it? So we're kicking that idea around. And then with our advisory board, the idea came up, Hey, instead of an award, what if there was a prize? So a little different, but Hey, Janine Benyus, one of our advisory board members sitting down at the other end of the table, doesn't your organization, your nonprofit, the Biomimicry Institute, Don't you, you do a challenge of some sort? Could that be a good partner in this? The answer is yes. And what has come out of this is a partnership with the Biomimicry Institute.

John Lanier (30m 3s):
I'm going to pause before I describe the partnership to say, what biomimicry is. I feel like that's important.

Monica Olsen (30m 7s):
Yeah that's good. It's important. Yes.

John Lanier (30m 9s):
Biomimicry is a design discipline where you ask, how would nature solve whatever problem I'm trying to solve? Maybe you're at a company that makes a product and you're trying to say, how would nature cushion if you're trying to design the sole of a shoe, or how would nature capture water or how a nature design an entire system to have zero waste, for instance? All of these are biomimetic questions. Nature has been engineering itself for 3.8 billion years.

John Lanier (30m 44s):
We could learn a thing or two from her. So that's what biomimicry is. It's it's that design discipline that says, how would nature do this? The Biomimicry Institute had been inspiring students to come up with new ideas for new products or new businesses that were biomimetic at their core. And they would come up with really cool stuff and they'd get a $5,000 prize and that would be the end of it. We realized that this is an opportunity to give more runway to these best ideas. And in the years that have followed since then, we've evolved into supporting a design challenge and a startup business accelerator.

John Lanier (31m 27s):
Again, with biomimicry at the core. It all culminates in one team, that is just about venture capital ready on the entrepreneurship curve, that pitches their biomimetic product or idea. One team is judged the best from each cohort. And we give a hundred thousand dollar prize to provide them further resources to continue their journey of launching a business that started with learning from mother nature. To us, again, this is the spirit of Ray Anderson because he represented this truth that when done right business can be a force for good in the world in every respect. These aspire entrepreneurs who have turned to nature first, represent that perfectly.

John Lanier (32m 21s):
If they are successful, the world will be a better place because of the businesses that they create. That's what Ray Anderson showed. That's what these young people are showing as well.

Steve Nygren (32m 32s):
Every time I think about Janine and the biomimicry, I remember the meeting. And this was back when we simply were running a bed and breakfast. And in fact, probably I was serving food in my bare feet in those days. And Ray had his dream team. And I remember when Janine sent everyone out into the woods and they came back and at lunch, I remember somebody said, yeah, we've been designing carpet. And that session is what led to the random pattern. Janine was talking to them about nature there.

Steve Nygren (33m 9s):
It's beautiful, but it's random in the way it fits together. And that led. And I specifically remember because it was kind of everyone kind of thought it was kind of weird and they were kind of excited about it. And they're kind of into that. And then later when we found out what that led to, it's kind of fun, having that peek into a lot of those key moments.

John Lanier (33m 30s):
That's where I'm jealous of you again. I wasn't there for that, but I have, I know the story. The, what came out of that was a product called entropy that, that Interface made this randomly designed carpet tile. True to exactly what you were describing. The design team, with the help of, of the, the dream team, were trying to ask and answer the question, how would nature design a floor covering? And it's not just this tip of the cap, thanks mother nature you helped us sell more carpet. There's very much a sustainability story to this. Because up to that point, most every carpet tile that Interface would manufacture had to come to exact specifications to be whatever pattern had been designed.

John Lanier (34m 18s):
Think, it'd be terrible carpet, but think polka dots. I know everybody listening can picture that in their mind. Well, if one of those dots doesn't print exactly right, or stitch, if when the way Interface makes their carpet, exactly right. And it's a weird shape, it looks like Pac-Man or something like that. Well, that carpet tile is not going to work because people would see that that defect. And it's called off quality in the manufacturing world and businesses say, you know, we're okay with off quality, the defects, as long as it's not too much. Interface was the same, but something magical happens when you learn from nature and design randomness into floor covering, where no two carpet tiles look the same, but when laid down randomly on the floor, they look pretty together.

John Lanier (35m 9s):
It means that when there's a defect, you can't spot it. You don't have a pattern that you're looking for because there was intentionally no pattern. So Interface used to have the carpet that they'd throw away or recycle because it mismanufactured, that went to effectively zero saving the money and meaning less material had to be extracted from planet earth to make the product the first place. So there is absolutely tremendous sustainability stories and benefits that come from crazy questions like, how would nature design a floor covering?

Monica Olsen (35m 49s):
That's fantastic. When you started writing this sort of, it's not a forward, it's basically the end. I don't know what we- the backward, the second half?

John Lanier (35m 57s):
The second half. Ray wrote seven chapters in the 1998 book, Mid-Course Correction. I wrote six new chapters in what has now been republished as Mid-Course Correction Revisited.

Monica Olsen (36m 12s):
What is the most- because you've been out, you know, with the book, touring, doing talks, hearing from people, what's the most surprising thing that you're hearing from people about the second half, or maybe they hadn't read the first in the beginning, but like what's surprising or maybe just even been good about it?

John Lanier (36m 30s):
What has surprised me is actually, there's a lot of people who didn't know who Ray was. More than I realized. That's not meant to be a criticism of anyone. It, it shows that there's a lot of people in the sustainability movement who came to it for a wide range of reasons. It's not like he gets credit. My grandfather gets credit for everyone who has come to realize that business must pursue sustainability. That's actually a good thing because it shows that we're starting to see this society-wide collective understanding

John Lanier (37m 12s):
That environment really matters. And that the way we do business right now, isn't going to work forever. It is unsustainable. So in realizing how many people are learning the Ray Anderson story for the first time, because we reissued this book, I choose to take a lot of hope from that. That has surprised me a bit. To the substance of it though, I think it's worth answering that question in another way. What I'm hearing from a lot of people is this, not panicked- that's too strong of a word, but this concerned sense of urgency.

John Lanier (37m 57s):
And this almost fear that the scale of our challenges are now so big that it's that much harder to solve. And so I'm hearing that from people, but I think it's captured best by one person that I interviewed for the book. Andrew Winston, a brilliant thinker, he is an environmental consultant and has worked with fortune 100 companies to help them in their sustainability journey. He actually got, the first environmental business book that he read when he was ready to change his career, was the original edition of Mid-Course Correction. So that I interviewed him for the second edition, was his story coming full circle.

John Lanier (38m 37s):
I asked him this question: Are you optimistic or pessimistic about where we're at? And he said, you have to be both. You have to be both because we've come so far. There's not a fortune 500 company out there that doesn't have at least one person- most have multiple- whose full-time job it is to think about how to make the business more sustainable. That is tremendous improvement. Sustainability is fully on the corporate agenda and it's not going anywhere. But the pessimism piece is that we are not making progress on the big challenges, challenges like global warming that we need to be making.

John Lanier (39m 23s):
And it has to still be led by business and industry just as my grandfather believed when he had his spear in the chest. So if business and industry is not moving fast enough. Uh oh. And I think that that captures really well what I'm I'm hearing from people is this sense of, uh oh. I hope that the response to it is let's work that much harder.

Monica Olsen (39m 50s):
No, I think that's great. And I think that, that is what we're hearing is that the companies are doing an amazing job, but they're in, we're starting to say, you know, how do we sequester the carbon? And I do know Carrie Pay one of your textiles or one of Interface's textile designers lives here. And I was having a conversation with her and she was saying that they had challenged, Interface had challenged her, to create a carpet tile that's sequestered. That actually sucked in carbon, which I don't even my mind can't even quite, you know, wrap around it. But I think that's sort of the next level, right? Besides like a LEED certified building or we're recycling on site, you know, what are those next things that you maybe are seeing that businesses can consider doing?

John Lanier (40m 34s):
Businesses have to start asking some really uncomfortable questions, radical questions, questions, like what Interface has had to grapple with. If we accept the scientific reality of global warming and the projections coming from the scientific community for carbon reduction that is needed and how soon we need it, then we cannot wait for every business around the planet to make a carbon neutral pledge for 2050, and then hope that they all make it, because that's not going to solve the problem. So the best, most corporately, responsible businesses out there are the ones who are saying, not can we get to carbon neutrality,

John Lanier (41m 24s):
How much carbon can we get? How climate positive can we become? And so exactly as you teed up, Interface started saying not just use more renewable energy to lighten our carbon footprint, can we redesign our products to help reverse global warming? And I don't know all that much about the science either. I know that they reformulated the backing of the carpet to utilize enough bio based material that on a full life cycle analysis, more carbon is sequestered because of the carpet tile was made than was admitted in its manufacturing.

John Lanier (42m 4s):
The power of photosynthesis is, is right there baked into these carpet tiles. We need more businesses to be doing the same. I want to give a shout out to one in particular that most people might not even realize what they're doing, but Intuit is one heck of a company in this regard.

Monica Olsen (42m 23s):
Interesting.

John Lanier (42m 24s):
Intuit made manufacturers, the software, not manufacturers, designs rights creates the software behind QuickBooks and TurboTax, products that I assume many people listening have at least heard of if not used. Well Intuit takes very seriously the challenge of global warming and they in partnership with Project Drawdown, an organization that our foundation has supported that has modeled the most substantive solutions to reverse global warming, with Project Drawdown Intuit made an announcement at climate week this year.

John Lanier (42m 59s):
And it was called 50 by 30. Let me unpack that. They studied as a business, what their 2018 carbon footprint was. And they said by 2030, we are going to become carbon neutral. In other words, that 2018 footprint, they're going to eliminate it. Once. And then another 49 times. That's the 50 is carbon neutral and then 49 times more of that by the year 2030. So there's your 50 by 30, here's a business saying we aren't going to stop at carbon neutral,

John Lanier (43m 42s):
We're going to keep going because they recognize that there are going to be industries, there are going to be communities that can't get to carbon neutral. And so Intuit is saying, we'll carry some of your water for you. That mindset of doing everything you can and helping your neighbor along the way if they can't help themselves, that's the sort of mindset we need to solve a problem like global warming. And it needs to be a mindset in the corporate community and just in every segment of human society. So I love to tell that story of Intuit making this big and bold commitment, do they know how they're going to get there? Heck no.

John Lanier (44m 21s):
That's part of the fun. You make big goals, you stretch your company, you stretch your constituents, your community, and you figure out together how to make it happen.

Steve Nygren (44m 30s):
I mean you know Ray and, and a lot of people up until now have done it because they knew it was the right thing to do. How much do you think is starting to change the market, especially as younger people, your generation and the younger are starting to, to have that buying power. How much is that's going to start changing?

John Lanier (44m 48s):
We're starting to see the right thing to do, being talked about in more and more places. A little bit from the consumer sector, for sure. You're, you're seeing people start to ask more questions about what they're buying and, and want to purchase the thing that's more environmentally friendly or socially responsible. And all of that. I wish we had more momentum there. Where I think we're gonna see the biggest movement, and this is going to be a real leverage point in advancing sustainability at social scale, is labor markets. Because my generation, I'm 33, and those younger than me, are no longer just attracted to whichever job pays the most

John Lanier (45m 38s):
As long as I don't hate the work. There was, I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but I would say that in previous generations, a stable career and a commitment to a company, as long as that company would provide the pension and the well-paying job and I can provide for my family, that's what mattered. Well, that's not the same. Again, casting, no judgment, things are different with young generations and they're starting to ask of their employers before they ever even take the job with that employer. What are your commitments environmentally? What are your commitments socially? What flexibility will you offer me to work from home some days? To spend more time with my family? To take more parental leave?

John Lanier (46m 21s):
Like all of this can become a tidal wave of change in the labor markets, because when the businesses who want to sweep all that away and say, I don't care about all that, I just want to keep making as much money as I can. When they realized that throwing more money to the salary of the person they're trying to recruit, doesn't get that talent to walk in their door and work for them, then their talent pool will dry up. And it will only be the companies that can compete for the talent, because those companies are doing the right thing, that's when you begin to see the businesses who are doing the right thing, succeeding and the ones who are doing the wrong thing, failing,

Steve Nygren (47m 4s):
Good point.

Monica Olsen (47m 6s):
I think that's fantastic. And there is a quote actually that I pulled out from the book that I think is perfect for that is that "Ray put purpose over profit", which I think is what you're talking about here, "but he never sacrificed his competitive drive to succeed in the marketplace". Because that's the thing. We, we need some sacrifice of purpose over profit, if you will. But that doesn't mean you can't succeed. It's just rethinking what capitalism means and rethinking of how the markets are working. And I think what you've done and what everybody, you know, we're talking about Intuit, that is the future, right? How do we rethink it? So I think that's a tremendous example that you gave.

John Lanier (47m 44s):
Yeah, he was fond of saying that business can't, or at least shouldn't exist to make a profit. Certainly it must have some higher, more noble purpose than that. It should strive to make a profit so that it can exist and pursue that higher purpose. For Interface, heck yeah. Ray and the people of Interface want to sell every carpet tile that they possibly can because in doing so it enables them to continue leading the way in creating the industrial re-revolution.

Monica Olsen (48m 16s):
Well, it's incredible, John, thank you so much for coming in. I absolutely have just

Steve Nygren (48m 20s):
John, before we sign off, we have to talk about Ray Day.

Monica Olsen (48m 23s):
Oh yeah.

John Lanier (48m 24s):
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you. That is a great way to put the cherry on top of a great conversation. We as a foundation have wanted to support many organizations, but broadly we want to in celebrating Ray's life, find ways to support the entire environmental community here in our region. And for seven years now, we have been so honored to have Serenbe be the home of the annual event that we put on called Ray Day. And it's no cost to anyone who comes, but it's an opportunity to get people outside into a field here at Serenbe to interact with 60 different organizations that have booths set up talking about their tremendous environmental work,

John Lanier (49m 17s):
Some non-profit some for-profit, all while enjoying food trucks and carnival rides. It is as family friendly of an event as you can possibly have. We have it each year in October and I would urge anyone listening who's never been to Ray Day to go connect with us online. And we would love for you when invites go out for Ray Day in 2020 to come and join us. See what it's all about. I'd love to hear your, your thoughts on the experience. Since you've been such a key partner in all these years.

Steve Nygren (49m 50s):
Well how many electric cars, what was the caravan this year?

John Lanier (49m 54s):
For the second year in a row, we actually our friends at the Ray they get the credit, organize a caravan of electric vehicles from the state Capitol in Atlanta to Ray Day. And it was 110 electric vehicles shepherded down the interstate by a police escort to come and arrive at Ray Day, showing that there's, there's a large and growing community of electric vehicle drivers in our state.

Steve Nygren (50m 21s):
I don't know if you've heard the goal for next year. I only know it because they've asked how many parking spaces I can set up and it's 500. So it's amazing. Pretty soon it's going to be a continuous line from the state Capitol to Serenbe, right?

John Lanier (50m 34s):
Yeah, exactly. Or maybe we'll get to a point where if you want to come, you have to have an electric vehicle. Who knows. No, I'm playing.

Steve Nygren (50m 40s):
I just think it's wonderful because one of the taglines that Ray always had as he was doing this for tomorrow's child. And so there's this real sense that it's it's for the children. And the amazing thing is John is now raising those children with, along with his cousins, my grandchildren, and the decisions we're making go to the many generations. And how are we going to answer to them if we do not deal with some of these hard questions.

John Lanier (51m 11s):
Exactly. That's the motivation.

Steve Nygren (51m 13s):
John, thank you for your loud voice, echoing what your granddad started. And I know he'd be so proud. I'm just proud watching what you're doing.

John Lanier (51m 22s):
Oh, thank you, Steve. We are grateful to be so close to you all and you you've taught us so much. So it's a joy and a privilege to be in community with you all.

Steve Nygren (51m 31s):
Thank you.

Monica Olsen (51m 32s):
Thank you.

Monica Olsen (51m 36s):
Thank you for listening to Serenbe Stories. New episodes are available on Mondays. Please rate and review the podcast and make sure to email your questions for Steve Nygren to stories@serenbe.com. You may even get to hear them on the podcast. More details about episodes and guests are available on our website, serenbestories.com.