Serenbe Stories

Chad Epple on Engineering Serenbe

March 30, 2020 Serenbe / Chad Epple Season 2 Episode 10
Serenbe Stories
Chad Epple on Engineering Serenbe
Show Notes Transcript

Chad Epple says he's been a civil engineer since he started building tree houses as a kid. As the VP of Southeastern Engineering, he brought a creativity and willingness to join Steve in changing the rules to design Serenbe the way neighborhoods were built 75 years ago. In this episode, Chad and Steve look back at a time when Serenbe was only woods and remember what it was like to work with the land to maintain Serenbe's natural beauty while adding in modern infrastructure. 

People & Organizations Mentioned

Biomimicry - The design and production of materials, structures, and systems that are modeled on biological entities and processes.

Bouckaert Farms

Boulder Creek

Chattahoochee RiverLands Project

Flight Path: The River Beneath the World’s Busiest Airport

Gabion Bridge - Gabions are wire mesh baskets/boxes compactly filled with rocks or soils. ... These rock-filled baskets are often used as retaining walls for highly erosive materials, bridge abutments and outlet aprons.

The Hill Restaurant

Mado Hillside

Old 4th Ward Park

Photogrammetry - The science of making measurements from photographs.

Proctor Creek

Professional Engineering Licensing

Smith Hanes Studio

Southeastern Engineering

Dr. Phillip James Tabb

Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) - A drone is an unmanned aircraft or ship that is guided remotely or autonomously. UAV stands for Unmanned Aerial Vehicle, something that can fly without a pilot onboard.

Monica Olsen (1s):
Hey guys, it's Monica here. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast that I've started with my very good friend, Jennifer Walsh called Biophilic Solutions. Our last season of Serenbe Stories, Building a Biophilic Movement, was so popular that we decided to dedicate an entire podcast to it. Every other week Jennifer and I will sit down with leaders in the growing field of biophilia. We'll talk about local and global solutions to help nurture the living, social, and economic systems that we all need to sustain future generations. More often than not, nature has the answers. You can find Biophilic Solutions on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Subscribe and follow us today so you don't miss an episode.

Monica Olsen (41s):
All right, now let's get back to Serenbe Stories. Serenbe is a place where people live, learn, and play in celebration of life's beauty. And we're here to share the stories that connect residents and guests to each other. And this is Serenbe Stories.

Monica Olsen (1m 25s):
Serenbe Stories is brought to you by The Inn at Serenbe. The Inn is nestled in the rolling countryside of bucolic Serenbe where guests can walk on the 15 miles of trails through preserved forest land, the wildflower meadow, and the animal village. You can relax by the pool, hot tub, or in rocking chairs on the wraparound porch, play on the croquet lawn, swings, and in-ground trampolines. Connect with nature and each other all while staying in luxurious rooms on The Inn grounds or within the community of Serenbe. Book your stay today at serenbeinn.com.

Monica Olsen (1m 53s):
And I want to welcome our guests, Chad Epple and Steve Nygren. How are you guys doing today?

Chad Epple (2m 1s):
Thanks Monica.

Monica Olsen (2m 2s):
Chad is here. He is the vice-president of our engineering firm, not Serenbe's engineering firm, but the engineering firm that we partner with SEI, which is Southeastern engineering. He and his wife have owned the company for gosh, a number of years.

Monica Olsen (2m 16s):
We're going to hear about that. He formed SEI in 1999, and then I believe combined it with your wife's business, who is also a civil engineer. She had traffic engineering solutions and you guys combined that in 2005. So want to hear all about civil engineering and how that relates to Serenbe. My first question is always, how did you come in to meet Steve Nygren and the Serenbe brand originally?

Chad Epple (2m 44s):
The first time I met Steve, it was at a, I was invited to a charette. This is back in 2004, 2005, it's a little fuzzy. But at first I had to look up what a charette was. Okay, so that was, that was quite some time ago. But I first met Steve, we were, there were a number of other engineers on the project that preceded us and we interviewed Steve for the, for the project. And first time I met Steve, he, he came in with, he didn't have any shoes on. I do remember that. And he came bounding in full of energy and liked him like from day one.

Monica Olsen (3m 22s):
Yeah I love it. So where was that, Steve? Do you remember that first meeting?

Steve Nygren (3m 25s):
That would have been in the con room at the,

Chad Epple (3m 29s):
The downstairs?

Steve Nygren (3m 30s):
at the Hawthorne room at The Inn. So that first week it was a the Hawthorne room at The Inn.

Monica Olsen (3m 33s):
So you were still living in the house? What is now The Inn at Serenbe? Yes?

Steve Nygren (3m 36s):
We were. We were still living there and we had the meeting. And so we were, we started with an engineering firm and they weren't quite getting it. And so we, we were interviewing different firms. And so that was the interview and, and Chad and SEI have been with us ever since. That was in the early days.

Monica Olsen (3m 56s):
That's amazing. And we did an episode in our first season that went really deep into engineering, infrastructure, how you lay the lines, where they go, what the order of, you know, the phone versus the gas versus the water and all that good stuff. But tell me a little bit about how did you get into civil engineering before we dig into Serenbe's. You went to UNC is that right?

Chad Epple (4m 21s):
That's correct. But I've been a civil engineer my whole life. When I was a kid, I was building tree houses. And I mean, it was never a, a decision I ever had to made. It was just what I was going to do. So it was an easy decision to make, to go into engineering. So, but yeah, I went to a UNC Charlotte, met my wife, who was a traffic engineer, in college and she started, she's much smarter than I am. She's smarter. She started her business in, soon as she got her PE or professional engineering license in 1996, and I learned from her, I watched her. She, she could do the really hard things, the accounting, the human resources. And I started SEI Southeastern Engineering in 1999.

Monica Olsen (5m 3s):
Okay. That's why she has the president title right, because she's smarter.

Chad Epple (5m 7s):
That's why. And we merged, we operated two separate companies for five years. We're like, what, why, why are we doing this? Two sets of insurances, two sets of everything. And we merged the companies together.

Monica Olsen (5m 18s):
That's great. And where did you start the company out? It wasn't at Serenbe originally. Where were you guys located?

Chad Epple (5m 23s):
Originally we were located in Gwinnett county. We moved out of Gwinnett into Cobb right around 2001, 2002.

Monica Olsen (5m 31s):
And what kind of work did you guys do? I mean, like for the general listener, you know, civil engineering, like, I kind of understand it has something to do with, you know, like that versus transportation and how you brought it together. Tell me like, what kind of services do you guys offer?

Chad Epple (5m 43s):
Currently, or when we started out?

Monica Olsen (5m 45s):
When you started out and how that's evolved is interesting.

Chad Epple (5m 47s):
When you start out you do anything that pays. When people ask, can you, you, you say yes before they even finish the sentence. So, but currently we offer quite a variety of services. We have about 110, 115 people currently.

Monica Olsen (6m 3s):
Wow. That's a huge company.

Chad Epple (6m 4s):
And so, yeah. We, we provide traffic engineering, transportation, civil site, and civil site is covers a pretty broad array of, of commercial multifamily, residential, green infrastructure. We have a pretty robust environmental group now. We do surveying. We have UAVs now.

Monica Olsen (6m 27s):
What's a UAV?

Chad Epple (6m 29s):
It's a UAF, sorry. It's a drone, essentially.

Monica Olsen (6m 32s):
A drone. Okay. So you have drones.

Chad Epple (6m 36s):
Yes. So we, and we, we do a lot of surveying from our drones. So we use photographs. We have LiDAR capabilities from our drones, so it isn't a, it's an emerging technology that's very effective.

Monica Olsen (6m 48s):
So drones, drones are really interesting. So the new technology being integrated into civil engineering, how does that work? What is it that?

Chad Epple (6m 54s):
It's a, it's a, it's a fantastic way to quickly and effectively and efficiently collect an enormous amount of data. We can do topographic surveys very quickly now, and we can use photogrammetry or LiDAR, which is, it's a, it's essentially laser scanning from, from, from, a drone.

Monica Olsen (7m 14s):
And that gives you the topographical, so the ups and downs.

Chad Epple (7m 16s):
Exactly. It gives you every feature that's visible. Whether that be trees, curb and gutter, buildings. Obviously you can't get underground utilities, but it's, it's, it's, we can collect data now that they would take weeks, we can do an hours.

Monica Olsen (7m 30s):
Okay. And would that supplant, like an actual survey on the ground? The guys with a little looking through the eyes and the, okay.

Chad Epple (7m 37s):
It does. It does not replace construction staking, it doesn't replace a lot of things, but it, it, it, it effectively allowed me to reduce my survey staff by three crews.

Monica Olsen (7m 48s):
Wow. Okay. That's great.

Monica Olsen (7m 50s):
When you met Steve that first time walking in with his bare feet, was that the first time you had a client appointment with somebody with bare feet, or?

Chad Epple (7m 58s):
Yeah, it was the first.

Monica Olsen (8m 2s):
And what, what were you looking for Steve? That, that, that the original engineers weren't able to achieve?

Steve Nygren (8m 7s):
Well, we're really pushing the envelope on a lot of, of issues is as Chad remembers. So there's, you know, engineers have a very logical, plus, there are all the rules that don't always necessarily have logic. They have just had, they been the rules for years. And so we were testing a lot of those issues and it was to, I was looking for somebody who would literally roll up their sleeves and get involved with under, with pushing, and is this a rule just because it's a rule or is there a logical reason to it? Or how can we change what we're doing to fit within the rule?

Monica Olsen (8m 51s):
Okay.

Chad Epple (8m 52s):
Yeah. And to expand on that, I would, I would say Steve was, an impression I got from Steve at that, that very first interview was he was looking for somebody that to share his vision and what he was trying to achieve. And he's right, there were a lot of rules that were in the way that, like he said, there were rules because that's how they've always been done. That weren't necessarily good rules. And there were, they were good rules in certain circumstances, but there are times when the rules can get in the way. And I think Steve was looking for somebody that would, that would push that envelope. They would execute and ask the questions.

Steve Nygren (9m 25s):
And get excited about that. And that's what I saw in Chad and his team is they've been willing to say, okay, well, let's, yeah, let's, let's see, what's the latest thing. And so, you know, a lot of that has, has happened with why are our streets and roads look different, whether it's the grade or the turn, and because our speed limit is 15 miles an hour, we can do things that, that, that kind of is different. And, and I remember the first time we walked the staking in Grange, and that, that was where I saw Chad was were really willing because everybody had done it the way it should be done. And I said, oh, let's do this. Let's change this. And, and he was willing to say, oh, well, let's look at that.

Steve Nygren (10m 6s):
Does that really have to be that way? And, and we, and we changed those grades. And that's why you have some of that interest as you drive. You're not always seeing the view sheds.

Monica Olsen (10m 16s):
Right, right. You haven't flattened the entire neighborhood and built upon it. The Hills are still here.

Chad Epple (10m 23s):
Another good example of that is in Selborne, which I've, I've always called phase one. You know, there are, if you notice the, the top of the omega goes through several streams, so common practice is to avoid streams. You turn your back on ecology and those resources turn your back because the rules are, you have to avoid those impacts. But what Steve did in a thoughtful way is he crossed those streams and really brought that ecology, brought people to the ecology. So you can, now, when you walk from this, this office here down to Blue-Eyed Daisy, you get to experience a lot of that beauty in that ecology, that if you would've, if you would've followed the rules, you would never, you would never see that.

Monica Olsen (11m 8s):
Interesting. So

Steve Nygren (11m 9s):
And that's one of the things that really the, the industry has changed on in, in the early days, we had to fight because the rule was put in a hard pipe and get rid of it and turn your back on it. And if you look at what's happening, whether it's Proctor Creek or the big cement ditch in Los Angeles is, is now biomimicry has come into the mainstream. But back when we were talking about doing all these things, man, it was not only were people not doing it, it was against the regulations to do it.

Monica Olsen (11m 41s):
That's interesting. So what would you have had to, what, what, let me rephrase that. So in this case where you can walk, there's an omega and you walk the omega from here to the Blue-Eyed Daisy, you cross over a stream. I mean, it's underneath the street, but you can see it right there. What would have had to been done would you just had to avoid it? You, you just the street would have?

Chad Epple (12m 2s):
It would have been, it would have been up on the ridges. It would have been completely avoiding these.

Monica Olsen (12m 7s):
Wow. Okay. And that was the, the way that they thought, oh, well, we can avoid environmental impact by kind of ignoring it. Is that sort of the way it worked? Or

Chad Epple (12m 18s):
Ask the question again?

Monica Olsen (12m 19s):
The environmental impact, as you were saying, you know, you turned it back on the ecology so you can avoid the impact on it.

Chad Epple (12m 25s):
Correct.

Monica Olsen (12m 26s):
And so

Steve Nygren (12m 27s):
You stay away from it.

Monica Olsen (12m 28s):
Stay away from it. Yeah.

Chad Epple (12m 31s):
But instead of engaging it in a thoughtful way, which is what Steve's done.

Monica Olsen (12m 33s):
Yeah. No, I love it. I mean, that's, I put up, you know, the other day, like a picture of the stream going, and I'm like, this is my walk. Like, and I'm just walking to get, you know, coffee.

Steve Nygren (12m 44s):
And you think that, that those tributaries are throughout all of our cities and very seldom, are you even aware of them.

Monica Olsen (12m 51s):
No, it's totally true. And we, you know, to your point, LA river is trying to bring back the river and make that a little more natural or there, but Denver or Boulder, I should say does an incredible job with the Boulder creek.

Steve Nygren (13m 5s):
Boulder has done a great job with it. Well, and you know, we've even covered a river. And so Chad, you're doing a lot of work at the airport now is how much do y'all deal with the, the river that actually is, is under the airport?

Chad Epple (13m 17s):
Yes. It, storm water at the airport is interesting. It, there are, there are master studies done that a lot that unfortunately were done 20, 30 years ago that allowed a lot of pavement to occur. So there's not a lot of stormwater management at the airport currently.

Monica Olsen (13m 36s):
Because it's all underneath.

Chad Epple (13m 38s):
It's already, those impacts have been incurred, piped decades ago.

Monica Olsen (13m 41s):
Right. But there is conversations and I believe there was a woman who wrote a book, right? About the river under the airport.

Chad Epple (13m 49s):
Yes. It's a, it's a very distressed the, the Flint river. It's upper, you know, it's, it's very stressed river corridor because of all the development and the airport's right at the, at the very top of it, of the basin.

Monica Olsen (14m 2s):
Okay, that's really interesting. Tell me about what were some of the first projects when you came here, you walk the land. Were you part of phase one or just phase two, Grange?

Steve Nygren (14m 14s):
No, the finishing part, phase one.

Chad Epple (14m 17s):
Yeah. Finishing phase one. And the, the first new plan is, was actually where we're sitting right now. And, and the funny story there is right here at Selborne way, I wanted to flatten the whole area. And Steve said, no, let's, let's make a really steep road. Let's, let's build a 13 foot wall right here and put it. And I've learned more from this, more of about engineering from this man than you would believe, but I just listened and, and, and, and finally got his vision and, and we executed on it. And it's beautiful.

Monica Olsen (14m 53s):
Yeah, no, that's true. And we'll put a picture up that The Hill, The Hill restaurant sits on a hill, which is where our offices are. And we do, we look out over the tops of the trees, but this hill you've talked about the grade. Talk, tell us

Steve Nygren (15m 6s):
Well there's several issues with that. I mean, one was, it's traditional, it's about a 12% grade is all you can have. And so that's one of the reasons Chad said, you've got to, it's just that he thought it should. That's what you had to do. Well we found we could get a variance on that and, and fudge it just a minute, but they say, well, if you do that, you can't have a commercial building up there. And I said, why not? He said, well, handicap, your sidewalk has to be handicap accessible. So we scratched our heads on that for a minute. And then I said, well, why can't we divide the sidewalk? And so the upper level is the upper sidewalk, which is all ADA compatible with the, and leads to your handicap parking.

Steve Nygren (15m 51s):
And then the other side of the sidewalk follows the street. And so you have this much more European look at the corner than we would have had before.

Monica Olsen (16m 1s):
Right. Because you stopped and you questioned and you thought versus just following the age old rules. What about Grange? What were some of the interesting things in phase two in Grange that you guys discussed and sort of came, brought forward?

Chad Epple (16m 19s):
Well, the best part about the Grange was, was the existing lake. You know, being able to use that for so many, so, so many features. We were able to use for storm water management, it provides an irrigation source for the community, and same, same principles, you know, Grange completely embraces the ecology and the natural resources around the lake. If you look at the shape of it, it, you know, Steve and, and Dr. Phill Tabb done, done just amazing things with with their layouts and their visions for that area. I take their plans and really just try to, to minimize additional impacts, you know, bring, bring the disturbance in and really contour the development to the land.

Monica Olsen (17m 12s):
And was the gabion bridge also something that you guys worked on together?

Chad Epple (17m 14s):
It was.

Steve Nygren (17m 16s):
Yeah. Chad brought that forward as we were looking at what the issues were, because initially we looked at, we would have to, we wanted to curve the road. And of course the most practical thing was to have a straight bridge, but then we couldn't have had the curve. And then I remember Chad said well, to get the curve, we're going to have to put a very wide bridge in, you know, it'd be a wide piece of concrete, but then you could curve on top of the concrete. And then he came back and said, oh, here's the Gabion where we could actually do these environmental things with it.

Monica Olsen (17m 45s):
And was that something that you had done before or read about? Or tell me how you came about that idea?

Chad Epple (17m 51s):
I was working with Steve, your, your challenge to come up with out of the box solutions to his vision

Monica Olsen (17m 59s):
And had, had mostly been done, I think in south America, is that correct? Or in European countries? I don't know where I think that I had read that somewhere, that it just hadn't been something that was utilized in America that often.

Chad Epple (18m 9s):
It was, no, and honestly it was a very cost-effective way to solve it. You know, it was, the gabion basket bridge is not a true bridge. A true bridge might have been much more expensive, so.

Steve Nygren (18m 23s):
But it's fun, you know, on tours, people that are in the engineering field planning field, they'll, you know, they'll recognize, oh, sometimes they haven't seen it, but, oh, this is wow. That's really cool. And, and, and the big thing that they, the Grange bridge specifically, we were able to save trees within five to 10 feet of what would have been totally an embankment of dirt that we would have spent a fortune replanting just that wouldn't even be coming near mature trees today. And now you drive through there and you can't imagine that that you're 35 feet above the stream.

Monica Olsen (19m 2s):
Well, and I think you look at, when you're driving down a highway, that's exactly what's happened. If any of those overpasses, which are we'll call bridges, right. That on either side there, you know, it's all new plantings or grass, but it's this very artificial feeling. Do you see people changing the way that they're building bridges?

Chad Epple (19m 21s):
Not bridges but I see more and more people pointing to Serenbe as an example of how to develop. You know, I'm involved with several other projects. You know, the Bouckaert farms are starting to, to assemble their tracks and their land planning and their, and they continue to use Serenbe as an example.

Monica Olsen (19m 39s):
Which is great. Yeah. Are there any things that other things cause Mado is a whole nother ball game, right. You know, I think that's fascinating with the pond over there and the way we're going up the hillside. Tell me a little bit about that.

Chad Epple (19m 50s):
Mado is interesting because Mado was actually zoned in Fulton county. I'd say I'd estimate 2006, 2007 ish. And I remember Steve pointing to there, there is, Mado is very similar to Grange, except there was no lake. There was a, there's a, a stream that runs down the center of it. It's just not, it's not impounded. And I remember Steve coming, working with Dr. Phill Tabb on the concept, the omega that, that exists now today. And I always try to support their efforts with, cause I have to, I'm the guy that has to execute on this.

Chad Epple (20m 30s):
So I'm always trying to say, okay, what do, I need storm water here. And I needed a, I needed a storm water facility right in the center of the omega. And Steve, Steve looked at me and said, Chad, someday people are going to get married here. He said, this is going to be so beautiful when I'm done that it, it will. And I was like, it's a pond. How, how is this ever going to happen? And it's, he's he's well on his way.

Monica Olsen (20m 55s):
Yeah, No, I know I've seen some of their, the plans. And so that'll probably by the end of this year, you think, or 2020?

Steve Nygren (21m 0s):
Yeah. Sometime in 2020 that we're figuring out some of the engineering issues with the bridges and how everything hits. But, but then the exciting thing that, that you move that. So, and Chad was, had this necessity of a stormwater retention because Mado is very dense, more dense than anything we've done. And that was the logical place for it. So of course it was, how do we make it beautiful? Then, yes, let's, let's turn that in. And then as we were looking at the, where were we going to do the geothermal wells for the One Mado office building, because it's so dense, we didn't have this, this large area, for instance, the, the apartments in Grange, we had the paddock at the stable.

Steve Nygren (21m 41s):
And so that's where all the geothermal wells are. And I think they came up we were going to have to have 35 wells in the distance, and we just didn't have the space. And so that's why I came to Chad and his team and said, what if we put at the bottom of our storm water retention?

Chad Epple (21m 57s):
So it's a multi-purpose feature.

Monica Olsen (21m 59s):
That is amazing.

Steve Nygren (22m 0s):
So that was initially going to be, I don't know how deep, 10 feet deep, maybe, or eight, and now it's 32 feet deep. And so it, it, it, it really, things like that just keep, well, how do we push this, this new technology? People had not done that.

Monica Olsen (22m 17s):
Right. And so that geothermal technology powers all of the One Mado building, or is?

Steve Nygren (22m 21s):
That's correct.

Monica Olsen (22m 22s):
Okay, will it power other commercial there, or is it just?

Steve Nygren (22m 24s):
There may be capacity, but we're, we're going to see, but right now it was, it was engineered for the, the One Mado building.

Monica Olsen (22m 31s):
That's amazing.

Steve Nygren (22m 33s):
No. So it's incredible what you can do. Now it's a, it's a stormwater, it's a geothermal, it's a visual asset.

Monica Olsen (22m 38s):
It's a wedding location.

Steve Nygren (22m 40s):
It will be. We're absolutely going to have weddings there. But then, but then Chad, because it is so dense, I had to come up with some other things because you know, my rule is we don't have pipes unless we absolutely have to. So why don't you tell them about the, the, the cisterns and some of the things you did there.

Chad Epple (22m 55s):
Yeah. We had to develop, we had to come up with, you know, if we really have to take the stormwater out of the, out of the ponds, we can't build traditional detention ponds and put fences around them. So what we try to do is locate our stormwater mitigation near the source. And we, we really try to embrace treatment chains, not, not a, not a one shot, one kill design approach, but rather a series of storm water mitigation. And what, what we developed, we developed a number of items in Mado. The, I think the, one of the most successful ones, w w were the infiltration with the rain gardens in the roadway. They, they appear ostensibly to be landscape islands, separating the parking, on-street parking, but they're, they're actually rain gardens that infiltrate stormwater,

Chad Epple (23m 46s):
That capture and infiltrate, treat stormwater and provide some, some detention benefits, but it's mostly water quality benefits, but that goes from there onto other treatment chains. It doesn't just go from there to the creek. There are an assortment of, of storm water treatment.

Monica Olsen (24m 5s):
All within Mado. And so what what's the next chain. So once you get into this little island system

Chad Epple (24m 12s):
Well from there are bioswales, there are a lot of engineered swales that allow infiltration. So, and then eventually it goes down into a, an engineered wetland area and that the engineered wetlands are really the, are the areas where the volume of storm water is mitigated.

Monica Olsen (24m 28s):
And where is that? I'm trying to picture it as a, somebody who walks around Mado all the time. Where those hidden?

Steve Nygren (24m 33s):
There's not hidden is right off the path. You'll, you'll, you'll see them.

Chad Epple (24m 36s):
It's, you know, true to form, Steve has incorporated that into the walking path. So it is a, it, it has become an amenity. You can, you can walk, you walk over it whenever you're on the trail system.

Monica Olsen (24m 47s):
Right. That's kind of fascinating that like this could be incorporated into the way you live and you could see it versus just sort of piped away, hidden. And we ignore it.

Steve Nygren (24m 56s):
And so for our listeners that really have not encountered this or the issues, for years, we have been putting them in the hard pipes which we mentioned. Well, what happens is then we have all the pollutants from our, our streets that end up going into hard surfaces, and they build up speed in a hard surface because it's generally flowing gravity flow to your tributaries. And when this hits the tributaries, there's so much pressure that it starts eroding that tributary and it has polluted water. And so this is why almost all of our cities have turned their backs because instead of these tributaries being an asset, a beautiful stream, they're dirty.

Steve Nygren (25m 40s):
And because we turn our back, they're becoming dumping grounds for old tires and batteries and all sorts of things. And this is why now the cities are starting to be aware of this, but it's costing millions to clean up these tributaries. And so I, I often ask when now we're speaking about Serenbe and, and, and how many people in the audience can imagine where the raindrop that falls on their house or their office makes it way to the tributaries and the streams, and hardly anyone can imagine that. And so my dream of the cities of the future is we have this green network as sort of a vein system of, of our waterways to where you are very aware of how all of the storm water that hits the building actually navigates.

Steve Nygren (26m 33s):
And we have these Greenways throughout and it's starting to happen. I mean, there, there's an awareness now that's really changing.

Monica Olsen (26m 40s):
Well you mentioned Proctor Creek.

Steve Nygren (26m 43s):
Proctor Creek in Atlanta is a very good example, and that has carried the stormwater and it's been totally destroyed and it's costing a lot of money. Now, it is going to be one of the great assets of Metro Atlanta as that path goes to the Chattahoochee river. And in fact, there's a whole river lands project that we have haven't talked about, but in the future, one of the now catalytic parks that's been identified is going to be right there at the mouth of Proctor Creek. And so there's a lot happening.

Steve Nygren (27m 15s):
And, you know, my hope is that all urban areas start combining their parks department and their watershed departments, because these two teams should really be working together because old fourth ward park in, in Atlanta is another good example of this.

Monica Olsen (27m 32s):
Chad, do you see anything like that happening? Sort of that's really fascinating parks and watersheds coming together. Do you think, like what are the, what would be the pushback that the city would give you or the planners would give you?

Chad Epple (27m 47s):
It's, pushback always seems to be money is honestly what I see. Property rights, previous historic land uses, you know, getting people engaged. It's, it's, you know, it's an education, but, but in embracing the problems rather than continuing to turn you back on them is, is, is the path forward.

Monica Olsen (28m 10s):
How did you, cause you mentioned that you have a pretty robust environmental business now, tell me a little bit, the difference between what we would think of is like maybe the conventional side of the business and environmental. And like, I would guess that Serenbe uses the environmental side, but like what, what's sort of the difference there?

Chad Epple (28m 28s):
My environmental group is really just can be broken into two separate areas. One is the more traditional permitting for environmental impacts. So ecological resources, whether it be flood plain, state stream buffers, or core federal jurisdictions, there's a, there's a, a permitting and a design process there, but another division within the environmental group is the green infrastructure. These are some of the, some of the techniques we pioneered here at Serenbe and we're applying with success and other, other, other projects.

Monica Olsen (29m 3s):
Is there something, anything that we've, haven't talked about here? I mean, I know we've talked about the gabion and the bioswales, I don't know if the, if there's a term for the, you know, stream not being packed away in a tube, you know, like, I don't know if there's a technical term, but what, are there other things that we haven't talked about that are other?

Chad Epple (29m 21s):
Other stormwater management measures?

Monica Olsen (29m 23s):
Or just other aspects of the green infrastructure? Or does it mostly deal with water?

Chad Epple (29m 31s):
It, it, it, yeah, it mostly in under the context of what under the, under what SEI does. Yes. It's mostly storm water.

Steve Nygren (29m 39s):
And grading of your land. You know, how, how are we going to, how are we going to land the streets that, that we have sketched out? How are they going to actually land on our existing topography with the minimal amount of, of disturbance.

Monica Olsen (29m 57s):
Okay. And that's something that, do you find that other clients ask you for that?

Chad Epple (30m 3s):
No, I don't. I don't. I think what Steve is referring to is tying into existing grade instead of having a three to one slope, for an example, we would, we would tie in at a one-to-one and really limit the the disturbance. Really tighten up the, the clearing limits impacts, you know, having our roads, a little steeper, slowing cars down it's, you know, it's, it's great traffic calming to, to have a little steeper, tighter, vertical curves on your roads and making them conform to the land.

Monica Olsen (30m 39s):
Right, no, and I mean, that's something that we always want to do here.

Steve Nygren (30m 42s):
And so Chad and his team really work with us because most developments work on having a flat surface. And there are a lot of reasons that this is, is, is easier traditionally. And so we really struggle with all of our utilities in, in them running their lines, according to the way we have laid it out and want that minimal disturbance because they're used to having maybe a 20 foot flat area, totally void of trees and everything else that they can bring in their equipment. And, and of course we're turning and leaving trees and all sorts of issues. And, and we're very tight. We're very dense. So the work that SEI does, it has to be very specific.

Steve Nygren (31m 25s):
And then we have to watch to where those things go in, because something that's a foot off in a, in a suburban type thing, wouldn't even be noticed where, because of our density and leaving the typography as it is, it becomes a very, that 12 inches is, can be critical at times.

Monica Olsen (31m 46s):
And have you found, I'm guessing like liaisons are the right partners at those utilities who now sort of understand the way that we do things or is it, you know, a constant struggle?

Chad Epple (31m 59s):
Yeah. Well, utility owners are yes. A constant struggle, but yes, there are, we have, we have forged a very good relationships with a lot of the utility owners, but I think not to be understated are the architectural considerations. The, there are a team of very talented architects in and around Serenbe that really embrace the topographical challenges that this kind of development leaves them and they've really done very creative things with it. That's part of the appeal of what you see at Serenbe.

Monica Olsen (32m 26s):
Yeah. I bet Grange hillside, or sorry, Mado hillside is one of those examples.

Steve Nygren (32m 31s):
We're really going to see

Monica Olsen (32m 32s):
Going on up the hill there on the other side,

Steve Nygren (32m 34s):
A topography that folks said was not going to be billable at a summit state laws sitting on the top. And so we all rolled up our sleeves to challenge that and we'll see what happens. It's, we're moving forward. The utilities are on now. We'll start at the first of the year actual structures, the first of 2020. And so no it's going to be very exciting.

Monica Olsen (32m 56s):
Well, one of the things is you seem to have liked Serenbe enough to have built a house here. Tell us a little bit about that.

Chad Epple (33m 3s):
A house and an office. Yes. You know, from when I first met Steve, you know, the place has always moved me and it certainly moved my wife. And so we, you know, we purchased a lot here in 2008, 2009, something at that time, not exactly sure when, and we, the vision was to, to open an office, an engineering office, and then maybe put up a flat above it. And so we that's exactly what we did and it's a very successful office. It's so successful we've actually purchased a lot next door.

Monica Olsen (33m 39s):
Oh, congratulations. That's very exciting.

Chad Epple (33m 40s):
Thank you. And we're working on design plans right now for an office expansion.

Monica Olsen (33m 45s):
Great. Pop out that wall and come on over. That's great. And then what about upstairs? Are you gonna expand the house?

Chad Epple (33m 51s):
No, it's you might do a for rent above it, a one bedroom flat or something.

Monica Olsen (33m 57s):
Yeah, I mean your home is gorgeous.

Steve Nygren (33m 58s):
We should put some pictures because it is, it's a dramatic and, and, and you all have four children and you designed this, so that all eight of you or six of you, I guess that is

Chad Epple (34m 9s):
Yes. Can fit. Yes. It's a, it's, it's a relatively, you know, it's a 30 foot wide live work unit, it's 30 by, I think it's 60 feet deep. The entire first floor is dedicated to the SEI office. And then the, the main floor, the second floor residential is it's a three bedroom flat. And then we have a rooftop deck on top and yes, we can, we can get all six of us in there and, and we've, we've done it.

Steve Nygren (34m 39s):
In fact you lived full time there as a family for a period of time.

Chad Epple (34m 41s):
Yes we are, we're storing a, a farmhouse and up north and yes, my entire family lived, we lived here for about six months. It was great.

Monica Olsen (34m 49s):
And it was all the interior designed by Smith Hanes, which I know got a lot of press coverage over the years. So we will throw those photos up. It's absolutely stunning. Anything else you want to tell us before we wrap up? Any projects you're working on outside of Serenbe that are really interesting that have got you excited about?

Chad Epple (35m 9s):
No. Not as exciting as Serenbe. Not after this. I could talk about it but

Monica Olsen (35m 18s):
Well, good. Well, I'm excited about the expansion of the office. That's really, really exciting. That's your, your other office is in town, right? Or is it north side?

Chad Epple (35m 24s):
Yeah it's on the north side.

Monica Olsen (35m 27s):
Well, we're excited that you're here and we're excited you're expanding, and it's great to learn a little bit more about the work that you're doing.

Steve Nygren (35m 34s):
We really appreciate you chatting with us today, but, but through years, because really what Serenbe is today is because of your willingness to, to push the edges and, and to bring your team forward. And I know that hasn't always been easy and I know both in the engineering and other faithful folks roll their eyes and say it's the Serenbe way, but yes, but now it's, it's a willingness to really do that.

Monica Olsen (35m 58s):
Well good.

Chad Epple (35m 59s):
Thank you.

Monica Olsen (35m 59s):
Thank you.

Steve Nygren (36m 0s):
Thanks Chad.

Monica Olsen (36m 9s):
Thank you for listening to Serenbe Stories. New episodes are available on Mondays. Please rate and review the podcast and make sure to email your questions for Steve Nygren to stories@serenbe.com. You may even get to hear them on the podcast. More details about episodes and guests are available on our website, serenbestories.com.