Today we are talking with journalist Gisela Williams, who's written for The New York Times, Elle Décor, The Financial Times, and Vogue among others. In her own words, she's always been interested in people who pursue humanitarian projects and make the effort everyday to be a better human. In her most recent article for Bloomberg Businessweek she writes about the people who are building for the future of community and features Steve Nygren and Serenbe.
We discuss the article and why she thinks it's important to cover this topic for the more skeptical reader and a business audience who would be investing time and resources into these forward thinking eco enclaves we call biophilic communities.
Mentioned In The Episode
Joanna Frank and the Center for Active Design
Foundation for Intentional Communities
John & Elora Hardy’s Green Village
New York Times article “Limited-Run Restaurants” - Gisela wrote this article about a European trend in 2006, then called “temporary restaurants.” These would soon gain popularity in the United States and are known now as “pop-ups.”
Today we are talking with journalist Gisela Williams, who's written for The New York Times, Elle Décor, The Financial Times, and Vogue among others. In her own words, she's always been interested in people who pursue humanitarian projects and make the effort everyday to be a better human. In her most recent article for Bloomberg Businessweek she writes about the people who are building for the future of community and features Steve Nygren and Serenbe.
We discuss the article and why she thinks it's important to cover this topic for the more skeptical reader and a business audience who would be investing time and resources into these forward thinking eco enclaves we call biophilic communities.
Mentioned In The Episode
Joanna Frank and the Center for Active Design
Foundation for Intentional Communities
John & Elora Hardy’s Green Village
New York Times article “Limited-Run Restaurants” - Gisela wrote this article about a European trend in 2006, then called “temporary restaurants.” These would soon gain popularity in the United States and are known now as “pop-ups.”
Monica Olsen (1s):
Hey guys, it's Monica here. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast that I've started with my very good friend, Jennifer Walsh called biophilic solutions. Our last season of ceremony stories, building a biophilic movement was so popular that we decided to dedicate an entire podcast to it every other week. Jennifer and I will sit down with leaders in the growing field of biophilia. We'll talk about local and global solutions to help nurture their living social and economic systems that we all need to sustain future generations more often than not. Nature has the answers. You can find biophilic solutions on apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe and follow us today. So you don't miss an episode.
Monica Olsen (41s):
All right, now let's get back to serenbe stories. Ceremony is a place where people live, work, learn, and play in celebration of life. Speedy in we're here to share the stories that connect residents and guests to each other and to nature. This is Sarah and bees <inaudible>
Monica Olsen (1m 23s):
Today. We were talking with journalist Gisela Williams.
Monica Olsen (1m 26s):
Who's written for the New York times, Elle decor, the financial times and Vogue among others. In her own words, she's always been interested in people who pursue humanitarian projects and make the effort every day to be a better human in her most recent article for Bloomberg business week. She writes about the people who are building for the future of community and features Steve Nygren and Serenbe. We discussed the article and why she thinks it's important to cover this topic for the more skeptical reader and a business audience who would be investing time and resources into these forward-thinking eco enclaves. We call biophilic communities that first
Monica Olsen (2m 1s):
Serenbe stories is brought to you by the Inn in Serenbe. The Inn is nestled in the rolling countryside, a bucolic ceremony where guests can walk on the 15 miles of trails through preserved forest land, the wildflower meadow, and the animal village. You can relax by the pool hot tub or in rocking chairs on the wraparound porch, play on the croquet lawn swings and in-ground trampolines connect with nature and each other all while staying in luxurious rooms on the, in ground or within the community of Serenbe book your stay today@serenbeinn.com.
Monica Olsen 2m 30s):
So I want to welcome everybody back to ceremony stories today we have, and I'm going to probably butcher it, right, but I'm going to try <inaudible>. He's a LA Gisela easel Williams, who is phenomenal, born and raised in the United States, but lived a ton of time. Overseas. Most recently in Germany has been a journalist covering. Would you say utopian communities kind of mapping these places? You, I, on your Instagram, I love it. It says we're sustainability and community meet culture and design. And we met you third in sort of a convoluted way through your sister-in-law originally.
Monica Olsen (3m 12s):
But then at the same time, you were moved back to the states and you were starting to do story a story on utopian communities. And it ended up coming to fruition just recently in a Bloomberg piece called the fancy neighborhood of the future is an earth-friendly intentional community. Move over communes and gated neighborhoods. The new private enclave is all about making you in the environment feel better. So I want to welcome you and Steve.
Steve Nygren:
Thank you.
Monica Olsen:
So you've been to Serenbe so you have that sort of background, but you've also lived all over the world and grew up in the Northeast, but are now living in of all places back in Atlanta, Georgia, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you kind of came to these topics.
Gisela Willams (3m 59s):
Well, that's a good, long answer, but I, I, I think it started early on. I had actually a great aunt and uncle who started a school where I'm from, which is in Litchfield, Connecticut, and it still exists. It's called the foreman school and it's actually ended up being a private school for those with dyslexia. But originally it started as a much kind of more utopian type of school and project Albert Einstein was actually on the board and it was really a project of passion and love. The two of them never had their own children, but they put all their energy into this school.
Gisela Willams (4m 40s):
And my father went there and, you know, he just is constantly quoting them. And so I think that must have colored my childhood. And despite the fact that I never actually met them at a, you know, she died, they both died when I was very young. So I think maybe that's part of it. I was always kind of interested in people who really pursued humanitarian projects and, and really made the effort every day to make that decision to be a better human I, then during college, I went to Bali. It was just kind of a spontaneous thing where my anthropology professor just one day said to me, he's like, you need to go to Bali.
Gisela Williams (5m 29s):
I know that's going to be a place for you. And I was like, what? Where is where I can get college credit pack. Okay, good, great. So I did, I went there and I learned in the nation, but beyond that, I learned about the culture, which is an incredibly rich culture that as is as close to, I think that the most full and holistic culture that I've come across and, and I, you, it was really engaging with it because we lived with families. We took part in, in all sorts of what they call Uber charges, which are, you know, celebrations and rituals. And so that, that was something that really, you know, I think, you know, made a huge impact on me and what I was interested in.
Gisela Williams (6m 16s):
And then later I, in New York, I worked, you know, I did, I paid my dues I've I worked for Conde Nast publications. I worked for interview. I, I did a lot of fact-checking at different magazines and, but I had always been interested in traveling, but not just traveling to hotels and, but, you know, experiencing other cultures. So I think, you know, that's where it all started. But then of course, I've, I've lived in Europe for the last almost 20 years. And, you know, there's all sorts of interesting projects going on in Europe, because of course with the EU, they were supporting a lot of these alternative projects for the, you know, whether it was in Portugal or Spain.
Gisela Willams (7m 4s):
And, and also when I was in Spain, I lived in Spain. I was there when they had that, the Frank Geary, you know, the Guggenheim and how that really just changed the whole city. You know, that was sort of an interesting example of how architecture can make such a large impact on a city. So these are all the little stories that I kind of had picked up over time. And, and, and, you know, I then started freelancing for multiple publications, including food and wine and departures. And the New York times, I did a lot of stories for the New York times for their travel section at the time.
Gisela Willams (7m 44s):
And I, you know, was looking for, for example, I wrote a piece about what I call temporary restaurants, which then a year or so later was, you know, turned into the whole pop-up phenomenon. So I I've always been interested in trying to see things before they come there. They're really well known in the mainstream culture, culture and media. I really enjoy that. I feel like it's, I feel like a detective, you know, look for these interesting stories that grow into larger parts of our culture. So anyhow, and then back to Bali, there was, there's a lot of interesting people in pioneers there. You know, I, early on, I was interested in the Hardy family who started the green school and then the green village and Laura Hardy there, the daughter of John, who is an incredible designer, who's designing things from bamboo.
Gisela Willams (8m 37s):
So I just started to notice these spaces that were coming up everywhere. You know, wherever I, you know, was fortunate enough to travel, but there was no network, right? There was no one mapping this there's no, you know, a website to find these bases. Everyone's kind of putting all their energy into these projects and, and working on their own with their own group. And there are all these connecting ideas, but there was no actual network. So I just started to follow these places and, and write about them. And so that's how I ended up at Serenbe because I, I, you know, moved from recently from Europe to, to Georgia, which was kind of an unexpected move.
Gisela Willams (9m 24s):
I wasn't, I didn't have a huge expectations. I didn't really know where we were going. I didn't, you know, I've never been to Atlanta. I was a bit, I was excited, but also a bit nervous about it returning to my own country after being gone for so long. But then almost immediately my let my sister-in-law mentioned Serenbe. So I became very curious about it. And, and as you know, reached out and came over to visit.
Monica Olsen:
And when you, so I have so many questions for you. So I, I'm not quite sure where to start cause I, I, I, every time I talked to you, we ended up going down sort of a rabbit hole of different topics and conversations.
Monica Olsen(10m 5s):
And we should let the listeners know that we also had this lovely, other connection is that you and my husband, we didn't know each other, but you went to Middlebury together, went to college together. And I just think that, you know, that school is such a special school. And the people that come out of there really have that sort of, I believe, or at least the friends that I have, my husband have this really interesting philosophy like that, that they are a little bit anthropologist or cultural detectives, and they've each found their most. They've done such incredible things, really interesting work that maybe isn't in the mainstream. Anyway. Another
Steve Nygren (10m 43s):
Interesting connection you'll probably know about is I've met the Hardee's because they did a presentation at the global wellness summit, but where I was, so we've talked to them there.
Gisela Willams:
Oh, really? I didn't realize that. So all sorts of connections. Yeah.
Gisela Willams(10m 58s):
Yeah, no, I can imagine that you would have a lot to talk about with them.
Monica Olsen:
Well, and there, I, I've known a few people that have, you know, just very loosely in New York who then moved because they were so drawn by the school that they left and moved to Bali. And then you did include a mention of them in this article that you did, which I think was great. That's one of the things I want to just like, jump back to when you were in Bali is you've said that it was the fullest holistic sort of richest culture that you had experienced. And, and obviously as a student, you know, you're, you're sort of younger. Do you still feel that way and sort of, can you like elaborate a little bit on that?
Monica Olsen(11m 38s):
Like what was it or what is it about it? I just curious.
Gisela Willams:
Interesting, but you probably know this, you know, you mentioned yourself, a lot of people are moving there, you know, okay. For the green school, but for the last decade or two, I mean, honestly, even starting a century ago, there were artists and creatives who were attracted to, to Bali and spent time there, some of whom articulated it and wrote about it. And, and now I think a lot of people who are there don't really even know what it is that they're attracted to. Many of them can get away with speaking English and having businesses there and not really engaging that much with the culture, but they feel it.
Gisela Willams (12m 20s):
And the, and the, and the, what they're feeling ultimately is this incredible, let's say gratification or just gratitude every, you know, almost every day, there's some kind of ceremony to give thanks. There's this huge, huge focus on keeping a balance. If you take down a tree, you, you know, you put up a tree or you give thanks and they are consistently, still very strong. I mean, I think you could debate that obviously modern color culture moving into, onto the island has, has changed things for the next generation.
Gisela Willams (13m 1s):
But the truth is it's still an incredibly strong culture that even, you know, the current generation are very tied to. So I, you know, I have a bit of a series, you know, this whole idea, you know, this excitement about burning man, you know, that there's been a lot of, you know, people who are really into it, but the truth is Bali itself is kind of the original burning man in that when they have the celebration for the, for the dead, you know, they have, it's called the nog Ben and they make this incredible, I mean, we would call it like a Mardi Gras float type of, of a platform, depending of course, on the wealth of the person who's died.
Gisela Willams (13m 44s):
And they, they build this beautiful thing and they, and they, they carry it through the village and they there's a whole ceremony around it. And then they burn the body as a cremation. And it's, it's like both sort of a celebration to that spirit and to that person, but also this idea of making this beautiful piece of art and, and no one really owns it. And then, and then burning it. And, and all of, a lot of the precepts of the burning man are also partly, you know, you could find those things in Bali in terms of you have this incredible culture, this is beautiful, this beautiful art, but they're doing it not to be famous or for their own self.
Gisela Willams (14m 30s):
They're doing it for the gods and their ancestors. So it's sort of a greater purpose behind this art-making that exists on the island. I mean, now looking back on it, you know, with a different type of eye as well, you know, needless to say, there's, it's not a perfect culture, right? Everyone is. So the first is called YN, there's five names for people, depending on if you're born first, second, third, and fourth. So then it's, you know, why in my day, you don't have much, let's say your individualism going on in a sense, but that's what makes the culture so strong in terms of looking at it as a woman, you know, I have to sort of be a bit more critical because it's not, you know, it's still very much a patriarchy and, you know, a lot of the women are really gated to doing the work at home that said they certainly have a lot of respect within the culture.
Gisela Willams (15m 29s):
So, you know, I've looked back on it over time and been more and more critical in a sense. But I think that the belief and system is one that's extremely appealing. And for me, it has continued to ring very true. And there's a real belief in the power of nature in that everything has a spirit and the importance of ancestors, you know, they really believe they're alive and looking down at, at, at, at everyone or that you're also may possibly a reincarnation of one of your ancestors. So there's this never ending thinking going on between the past and the present.
Gisela Willams (16m 15s):
So I do, I, I'm still fascinated by, by, by Bali. And, and again, as I said, there's so many people there that have been drawn to the island. There's a lot of things going on there, but you know, a lot of people don't really, if you ask them what it is that, that, that they feel attracted to, they don't actually know that much about volunteers, Hindu culture, but they see it. It's probably the most visual culture in the world in terms of its beauty. I mean, like I said, there's celebrations, you know, women are carrying offerings on their head almost every other day.
Gisela Willams(16m 56s):
You find something and one in a village, the music, the gamble on music, all of it is so visual. So you don't necessarily have to understand it, I guess, you know, if you don't want to, but it's there to see all the time.
Monica Olsen:
Tell me, cause I do think that's interesting. You mentioned the Geary and how that changed that, and that made me think of Marfa in Texas or DIA. I know Stevie, you've been up to visit it's DIA right up in the upstate New York, I believe. Right. And even burning man, right. That changed that part of the world. Or you could say Coachella changed, you know, sort of the arts, but that is an interesting idea that these somebody's idea and setting sort of this intention, whether that's art or architecture or a gathering can change a whole place.
Gisela Willams (17m 48s):
I think a lot about when, you know, when I did this piece, I spoke to a woman named Joanna Frank from the center of active design. And, and she was basically what they're doing is kind of proving what we're saying here, which is that design has huge impacts that in general, we haven't been able to measure. So for example, this is what I'm saying, like the people on Bali, they don't really know how this island has been designed, but they feel so well there. And, and I think that's probably true with Serenbe too, in that people who don't have any understanding of, of how it was built, the ideas behind it, they just feel well.
Gisela Willams (18m 30s):
And they can't really explain why, but there is, in fact, there can be guidelines to that. And, and there can be an understanding of what it is that is, is making that impact of what she was telling me, which is now, I think more and more known that your zip code or your design environment affects your health more than your genetics.
Steve Nygren(18m 54s):
We have way undervalued the physical beauty, whether it's nature, whether it's architecture, whether it's actual art. And, and this really came home when I was having a discussion with Dan Butner, who did the blue zones. And, and I said, Dan, you need to bring this up to date. I said, I was surprised. One thing that isn't in there is beauty. And yet every place you've identified is beautiful. And so it's sort of taken for granted, or we identify it with historic or various things, but in fact it is beauty. And I think we're realizing that
Gisela Willams (19m 34s):
Well, and I would add it's nature too. I mean, I think that, that's what one thing Joanna mentioned too. And of course that plays a big part with Serenbe is, is, is, is nature and beautiful. Yeah. The beauty of nature, I guess, is what it is, but it was interesting because she had broken it down through these, all these, this research that they had collected, that you can even kind of predict how you're going to get along with your neighbors, depending on what your front yard looks like.
Monica Olsen:
Oh, that's interesting.
Gisela Willams (20m 14s):
Yeah. But I mean, if you look like you're putting energy into your, into your yard, apparently that makes your neighbor trust you more. But I mean, and that was actually how I started the piece for Bloomberg was when we did that tour that you were leading Steve and, and someone had asked, you know, how much does it, the maintenance cost for these beautiful, this beautiful landscaping. And, and it was just so great because in the end, you kind of shocked everyone saying, yeah, that's probably half of what you're spending because we're doing it the right way in the end. You know, because here, I mean, partly the excitement about, and Serenbe was, is, is came to me because here I am, I'm living in the suburbs of Georgia.
Gisela Willams (21m 2s):
And, you know, the, the tendency here is to build these real estate developments. I mean, there's very few people who kind of live in independent homes. You know, this is just the way I guess people build now. And, and, and I see that too, that, you know, they just roll out the lawn. It's, it's just not really the, this is not indigenous to Georgia. It's really difficult to maintain these lawns and you get a lot of toxins being sprayed just to kind of maintain it, a lot of water being wasted. And yet what you have there in Serenbe, I think is just so much more attractive. Just even if you're looking at it, purely as aesthetics , it's, it's much more attractive, but then to add the fact that you're saving money and it is better for your health,
Steve Nygren:
I think that's so interesting.
Steve Nygren (21m 54s):
And I think it's something that people really need to understand. That's right.
Steve Nygren (21m 57s):
And very few do, but itself. I think it's interesting to me, a lot of people come here and I don't know how you felt, but they say, oh, it's great. As your web pages, your pictures don't do it justice. And I think it's similar to how abolish people do not understand what they're feeling, but literally you have to seal it to really capture what we're doing here at Serenbe. Yeah. That's a good example. How's the culture. Now you've just described where you're living. It's a typical American summer just happens to be Atlanta. And now under this unique period of time with the pandemic, how how's the culture?
Gisela Willams (22m 35s):
Well, I, you know, we live in Fulton county, so we live north of Atlanta. And I have to say coming from Berlin, I was surprised at how international, how well educated, like in general, all the interesting businesses here, also the schooling. I there's some excellent public schools around here. Our kids are going to a school called High Meadows, which is actually a private school and actually quite pioneering one that really embraces being outdoors. It's on an old farm estate. So despite the fact that the Georgia government governor has kind of opened up bowling alleys, this county has been very careful about, you know, the, the, the restrictions that have been put on us and for the most part staying at home.
Steve Nygren:
do have sidewalks?
Gisela Willams (23m 29s):
But yeah, we do, we have sidewalks know, and the truth is, you know, I think there could be a lot of improvements with these more mainstream developments, but in general, you I've noticed actually another community that I've seen. There's a lot of kids riding their bikes around, you know, we didn't even bring our bikes because we thought, oh gosh, they're not going to get a chance to ride their bikes. Whereas, you know, in Berlin you ride bikes everywhere. I didn't even, we didn't have a car in Berlin. We, we just took public transportation or we rode our bikes, but, you know, so, but, so I am, you know, there was a lot of surprising things that, you know, that I've experienced moving here off often, you know, quite pleasing.
Gisela Willams (24m 20s):
But one thing that I, that's why I was really excited to find Serenbe, this, you know, I feel like, unfortunately what happens here is that people continue to follow these mediocre formulas without attempting to try something new. And so Serenbe to me is this incredible example of, of what a lot of these mainstream developers could be looking at. But as you said to me, you know, when we spoke, you said, look, it's, it was very difficult. It's difficult to be a pioneer. You, you can't, there's no example to show the investors or the bankers to say, look, you know, but now people can use you, right?
Gisela Willams (25m 7s):
I mean, now, now people can use survey. And that's why you had to start that small company, you know, to, to help, right. To help others. You, you know, cause you told me that there was so many people, ultimately they said, Hey, Hey Steve, do you mind meeting up for coffee? Can you tell me your story? And again, you had to really start a consulting business.
Steve Nygren (25m 30s):
And it's amazing. The F I mean, I I've had two calls already this morning that I've talked to people briefly. I mean, the pandemic has really increased that interest, not only in the United States, but other places. So what I see is people are really starting to reach out and think, oh, maybe, maybe we do need to change. Maybe we need some, some alternative ideas here. And I'm hoping people are becoming addicted to, you know, the, the bluer skies and the cleaner air. And to see that this isn't some long term difficult thing to get to that it actually can happen pretty fast if we have the will.
Gisela Willams (26m 6s):
Right. And also I think it having that, those examples and that research to then prove to investors that, you know, clean energy, landscaping, beautiful design is all of huge value. Okay.
Gisela Willams(26m 24s):
Right. I mean, it's a huge value from, from, from the market side. And hopefully our policymakers will actually really put some teeth into some of these policies to bring this forward. You know, this is a, a health crisis. There are several other crisises looming. And if we do not wake up and start looking at disease, I mean, imagine if, if, if this was a food borne virus and we've allowed 60% of our food to be grown in foreign soil, and how would we adjust if, if that were happened, if we were cleared to close the borders to our food supply.
Steve Nygren (27m 8s):
And so you think about all these things we're not doing.
Gisela Willams (27m 11s):
Yeah. It's so true. Absolutely. I mean, I think that, you know, one of the people that I interviewed for this story, James Reagan, he has this concept called region villages. So it's still in its master plan phase, but he has sort of thought of these developments as they should be completely self-sufficient. I mean, in other words, he feels like, what if we're looking to the future and looking towards less employment towards maybe more of these viruses, and we need to really consider that the, the, the citizens in these developments might not have a consistent income, that they need to be able to harvest their food within those communities.
Gisela Willams (28m 5s):
And they need to also be kind of off the grid in terms of energy. So, I mean, he kind of took it to the next level and almost like a sci-fi level, but I think it's an interesting concept. And I think that since this whole, you know, COVID-19 reality has hit hidden. He's getting a lot more people, you know, because a lot of people really thought his plan was kind of sci-fii, but now it's looking actually like a very smart way to move forward.
Steve Nygren (28m 44s):
I mean, what we think of as scifi is actual practical, common sense today, as I say, you know, I mentioned the food, but what you're touching on, what he's doing is, is, is independence from the electrical grid. And we should be putting a lot more focus on that, because imagine if one of these earthquakes that had happened to taken out part of our grid, it's all so interconnected that we could have an occurrence happen. In one part of the United States, it would take out a third of the United States. And we're just not putting any energy in or funding to support independent grids, which is, I think, essential for us.
Gisela Willams:
Well, I'm thinking also wifi, for example, like if suddenly we couldn't, we had no internet, can you imagine how that much more difficult everything would be right now? You know, we wouldn't be able to work from home. The children would not have as much schooling as they had, but to I'm curious, when you, you know, what would have helped you over the last decade of growing Serenbe in terms of government regulation or tax regulation, what would have been those things that really would have been helpful to you?
Steve Nygren (29m 56s):
We were able to move on most of the regulatory things. I mean, it was, it was, it took energy education, and most of them, we were able to change, but the financial markets were the biggest hurdle because unless you had feasibility studies, unless you could point to other places where that's happened and it still is even with serenbe, they're just , not enough volume that the financial markets are willing to fund this. And so they, because of their requirements and wanting to look in the rear view mirror, we continue to fund the same old thing. And it's not because the markets demand it is because there just isn't enough product of the alternative.
Gisela Willams (30m 42s):
That's right. And I hope, you know, that, and my hope actually, in a way with writing this piece was to show that that these kind of these kind of developments are actually smart investments. They're long-term investments. Right. But they're smart.
Steve Nygren (31m 3s):
And there you look at how long term, if you, I think we're already seeing some of the things. I mean, the the front yard is a good example of that. It's more economical. If we could start measuring improved health from a financial yardstick, then it would, it would show the immediate financial return as well. And, and I hope through all this, that, that various people have tried measuring that, where we get to a point where that is also valued along with a lot of the other things we look at with, you know, marble countertops or dollars per square foot, we, we just have such a mixed up value system when we're thinking about our housing.
Monica Olsen (31m 44s):
Well, and that's something that we've touched on in prior podcasts, but I do think it's worth reiterating that you do, you know, people come and they want to buy a house, but they, their first questions are not, you know, what's, my access to nature is the home a geothermal, you know, what are the health benefits of the house? You know, do you guys have a farm nearby? It's, you know, where is the big box store? You know, it, you know, it sees more, you know, it used to be before we had a gym, is there a gym? And that's great, but it's like, where's the trail head. What's the air quality. Those aren't the first questions. And I think it will be interesting if that starts to change.
Steve Nygren (32m 27s):
Everyone is interested in how easy it is to be a consumer and how convenient it could be to fix us if we're, if we're sick. So upside down, rather than staying healthy, how can I get
Monica Olsen (32m 40s):
Right? Where's the doctor, where's the, where's the target?
Gisela Willams:
But I do think that there is in the U S like, you know, I've, like I said, I've been outside of the states for 20 years and then kind of reentering, I think that there is a growing and greater awareness of wellness, you know? And so I do think more and more people will be asking those questions don't you agree?
Steve Nygren (33m 5s):
Totally agree. No, that awareness is, is really stepping up on financial markets to fund those issues has a a lag period to it.
Gisela Willams (33m 15s):
Yeah. I just, I do think that this moment, and actually when I spoke to it's, I think it's the foundation for intentional community, the spokesperson. She said that their website had gotten just thousands of additional hits, you know, and, and, and, and so, you know, absolutely people are more and more interested. I also read, for example, that you can't even find, you know, baby chickens anymore, because so many people are buying baby chickens so that they can raise their own eggs. So I think different versions of these communities are really getting a lot of attention.
Gisela Willams (33m 56s):
And in general, people are thinking, you know, towards the future that we should become a bit more self reliant.
Monica Olsen:
Steve and I were just talking, there's a nonprofit that we're both on. Oh Steve founded called the biophilic Institute. And the biophilic board just met the other day. And one of our board members is Jeff Katz, who is the chief revenue officer for Rodale Institute in Pennsylvania, the organic agriculture group. And he sent us along Steve, like seven trends that were sort of silver linings of sort of what's happening in two of them. Well, three of them, one was self-sufficiency right. One was immunity interest in immunity and wellness.
Monica Olsen(34m 39s):
And then the one that was surprising was land conservation. The people are looking for open land. I can't think of what the other ones were, but I thought that these, those I'm fascinated as well, those trends like what's coming, what are we going to? You know, what have we left behind in this sort of now? And then what are the, what are those things we're going to leave here? And we're not going to take them with us as we kind of, you know, go past the coronavirus. Like, what are those things that we're just going to leave behind? And we just don't want to do anymore. We don't want to participate in, or we want to change the way we're, we're thinking. But one question you were saying the foundation of intentional communities, because that was a big conversation that we had about, you know, what is, are you an intentional community?
Monica Olsen (35m 24s):
Is there an intentional community? What is an intentional community mean? You and I ended up, I looked it up, you know, right. I actually went to the definition because Steve and I are like, well, we're not, but what is it really? And so that something that you know is very specific and a lot of people don't want to be grouped into because it either is aligned with a little more of a commune concept or, you know, a specific political, religious, or social sort of belief. And you're sort of in its membership where this is, you know, Steve always likes to say, which I think is great, is like we're building a town. It's just like, everybody's welcome.
Monica Olsen(36m 4s):
And everybody comes in and chooses to either visit or live.
Monica Olsen:
But tell me a little bit more about that. Cause I think you were really pushed to try and name this group of places.
Gisela Willams:
You know, this is back to the idea of like, I, I caught when I was writing about pop-up restaurants, I called it temporary restaurants. And you know, of course I wish that, you know I came up with the name, pop up, but I think, you know, all of these projects are very different. They really are, but it is helpful to have some kind of overlying name, intentional community, I think is very vague. It's vague enough to, to encompass all these projects because it kind of just says, you know, these are communities built, built with incredible intention, you know, really strong intention.
Gisela Willams (36m 51s):
And I think that's certainly vague enough to fit a lot of these projects, but because I think intentional community, that term is colored a little bit by some kind of, you know, commune hippie.
Gisela Willams(37m 8s):
People don't want to be attached to that name.
Steve Nygren:
because I noticed that you called us what eco claims is what you tried naming at some point. You also talked about, you know, the, the, the direction to be self-reliant and the conversation we were just talking about, you know, maybe self-reliant is just the straightforward indication of what those of us in this area, whether it's our front supplies, our energy supplies, and it's more of a regional market rather than this global international supply chain.
Gisela Willams (37m 47s):
This is where I had to explain. It's like, you, you, you you're self reliant, but you're also welcoming and creating community.
Steve Nygren (37m 58s):
Yeah. Well, there's a big difference between self reliant and closed,
Gisela Willams (38m 3s):
But that's what was confusing people a little bit, you know, somehow they feel like it's the close and cut off. No, it's just, it is self-reliant but it's, it is very, you know, that's what I was explaining. That was sort of the, the, the examples that I was using in my piece were very much places that were welcoming. In fact, in some, which is the case of surveys, well, there are hotels, there are restaurants, there's places that people can come and visit and engage. You know, I mean, if you talk about the other, I also talked about powder mountain and summit, and those guys are all about experiences and events that bring people together, you know, really bring a variety of, of creative people together and entrepreneurs in order to kind of rub up against each other and come up with exciting ideas.
Gisela Willams(38m 55s):
And, and that is so, you know, all of these projects have kind of different reasons or purposes for coming together. But I was really trying to look at the ones that kind of had this common, let's say intention, which involves everything from land preservation to, to an attempt, to be self-reliant to embracing a community. Yeah. And you wonder if, you know, we get a lot of people saying that they, they just can't believe it's real or not. I don't know if that's preconceived or when they're here. They they're just the things they see don't seem to be common, which, which is a whole another comment, whole another story.
Monica Olsen (39m 43s):
But, but I wonder if that's it, you know, the word, you know, we try the utopian is used, you know, enclave. And so does it seem to special that nobody feels like we can, you can have this or it, you know, cause it is slowly but surely being, I don't want to say replicated, but it is, you know, people are being inspired by all of these concepts right. To do more. But, but if they feel like it's utopian, which if you will, you know, or I think you said like utopian light, you know, utopian isn't real, that doesn't exist. Right. That's like this perfect place that, you know, like you were saying, like Bali, like there's criticisms of it and you know, nothing's perfect.
Monica Olsen (40m 26s):
And so maybe we're putting too much hope or I don't know, belief that can't, we have a better life. I mean, I wonder if we're not giving ourselves enough credit that we can have the life we want to live. So somehow we don't believe these places are real or.
Gisela Willams:
yeah. I think that there's a tendency in general to throw the baby out with the bath water. You know, I mean, I don't, why are people angry or why is there this kind of, you know, with the whole like hippie commune movement? I mean, we can look back at it and make fun of it, but the truth is there were a lot of positive things that came out of it too.
Gisela Willams (41m 6s):
So I think that there's this tendency to just totally be you know, be very extreme about making these, you know, having these opinions and basically shutting down something that's actually extremely helpful. I mean, I think, and this is sort of a bit off the topic, but, you know, there was this article in the New York times magazine about Gwyneth Paltrow and, you know, you could make fun of what a cultural you want. You know, she, but you know, she's not doing this for the money, you know, she's doing it because she really cares. And I, you know, she, she might want to be, who knows like some sort of wellness group, but at the end, she's just trying to help people.
Gisela Willams (41m 50s):
And yet everyone's, you know, just bringing her down. And I think it's easier in some ways to do that than to actually attempt to be a better human every day. And I think that that's all that was sort of like the line that connects a lot of these projects is that the people behind it every single day are making decisions and saying, is this better for society? If so, I really want to go that way. And I think it's a lot easier for people to just not think that way. Cause it's, it's not easy.
Gisela Willams (42m 30s):
You know, for example, I mean, I started a little kind of environmental group of the school that my kids go to because I was surprised at how many people here, you know, don't think about styrofoam and plastic materials and recycling it after coming from Germany, it was quite shocking to me that there was so few people concerned with that. And so, you know, I think it's just this culture of, you know, making things easier for yourself. It's much easier to call in and, and deliver something, then make something yourself.
Gisela Willams(43m 12s):
But, you know, I think that the, this time now, of course everyone, you know, this delivery culture, convenience culture in a way like Amazon is making so much money there, they're really doing well, but in the end, that's not really great for the environment. Is it, you know, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that I feel that people it's easier in a way to pull down these, these really ambitious humanitarian ideas. It's easier to make fun of them than it is to actually try your best. But I find that a shame, because I think that we have now, unfortunately, a little bit of this reality and in the U S where we feel that no one can make a difference that no one can make impact, which is absolutely untrue.
Gisela Willams (44m 9s):
But we, we just rather say, you know what, there's just too much like how can one person fight the fight? We, you know, I just, I need to take care of my family. I need to just, you know, make it through. So I understand that. I understand that because, you know, it's harder and harder, I think for people to survive at like a middle-class level. But I think it's extremely important to have these examples of all these people. There's a lot of Americans who really, as one person have made great change. And I think it's important to, to show those examples.
Monica Olsen:
Yeah. I think w you know, again, we talk about, you know, why do you make change and, and that you can have changed.
Monica Olsen(44m 54s):
And I think one thing you're right, like people can be very dismissive. And so, and that's easier, but how do we provide get people to just be a little more thoughtful about what they, their choices they make, right? Whether that's styrofoam from plastic or where you live, or just supporting the places you, you know, you don't even have to live here, but just supporting the concepts of going to your geothermal or putting solar panels on your house, or maybe my next car is going to be electric, but giving people hope and a little bit of inspiration that they can, you know, do something. I mean, Steve, you talk about like, in your own backyard, right? Like you started this, not because you're like, I'm going to change the world per se or change the way developers think about you really started to protect your own backyard.
Monica Olsen(45m 44s):
And then it became this sort of mission. And I, and I don't know if we've really heard any good cumulative names, like intentional community conservation community has come up, you know, Agra hoods, but that's just a part of it. I think arts are interesting.
Gisela Willams:
Right. I don't think there's anything that has managed to encompass all of these.
Monica Olsen:
No. And you know, you and I talked about, and I'll, I'll touch on biophilia again, you know, I kind of pushed back on, well, what about biophilic communities? Like what about that? The innate tendency to want to be a part of and be with and support living things. But I think again, that concept or that word is still, it's maybe trickling out there, but that might be the one that I keep pushing for.
Monica Olsen (46m 31s):
I don't know what your editor, but there just needs to be a lot of education about that.
Gisela Willams:
You know, people need to understand what it means, and it's still not on anyone's radar, but, you know, I think regenerative that term has been really been discussed a lot in terms of design in terms of agriculture. So I think, you know, that I, maybe that's why James, you know, named to this master Penn region village, I guess. So that's definitely interesting. And when I spoke to John Johnson, who was someone that you, you guys met with and they were very impressed with Serenbe for this article, he was saying that that was his goal as well.
Gisela Willams (47m 15s):
The project he's working on in Costa Rica, he and his wife, they really wanted to make it all about regenerative design, regenerative agriculture. So I think, you know, that's moving forward, maybe a good term to look at. I think, you know, and again, I think the danger is too, even though it's helpful to have a name that somehow describes this movement, you know, in our, in this current moment where things just kind of get eaten up by media and then spit out like a few years later, you also worry that it becomes overused. You know? So for example, the word utopian, I think is one of those words where people, you know, they don't want to hear it anymore and right.
Gisela Willams (48m 4s):
And they don't, they're very scared.
Monica Olsen:
Like, what does it mean?
Gisela Willams:
But, you know, it's, it's, it's a good word. You know, it's a good word. I just think, you know, again, utopian is sort of a word that you have to define, and it can mean many things. It could mean nothing, and it can mean a lot the term itself. And so it's maybe about claiming it and explaining it, but I think there's certain terms one can't even really use anymore for that reason. You know,
Monica Olsen:
I'm curious about, you know, any feedback that you've gotten on the piece from either your editors or Bloomberg or friends or business, and I'll actually ask you first, and then Steve, I'd love to hear anything you've heard about it.
Monica Olsen (48m 48s):
Cause you know, different press affects Serenbe in different ways, but I'd be curious, like, are you, you know, the good and the bad, like, you know, are you getting pushback on the concepts, are people excited? Were they adding to it? What have you heard from, the Bloomberg piece?
Gisela Willams:
Well, I got a lot of great positive feedback. I actually, the, the, a lot of people that I heard back from were those who were doing their own projects, which I was happy to. I mean, there's just no end to, to trying their best to create these really experimental spaces. And so I, I heard a lot from different people from around the world who said, oh, thank you for this article.
Gisela Willams (49m 32s):
You know, I, I'm excited to be in contact. Let's let's, you know, I like to connect with you. So that's that's, that was exciting. And, and in general, because of this moment, you know, coronavirus, I did get a lot of additional interest from people that might not have been maybe as interested. So, so no, I, I definitely got a lot of great feedback from this one. I don't know how about you guys?
Steve Nygren (50m 2s):
Well, absolutely. What I found interesting is is people who've reached out to me and in LinkedIn or Facebook, or just an email, it, you know, and people don't even know we've had so much lifestyle kind of press that this hit more in the business community. And what I really appreciate is I don't have an exact, an exact example. I, I believe it it's touched people that, that do Hall's financial strengths that this could affect their attitude, at least take a more serious look. So I can, I thought it was a very important piece, the way you wrote it and that it was in Bloomberg, gave a different tilt to it than the press we had.
Monica Olsen(50m 43s):
. Yeah. And it's an incredible group of people, you know, it's great, you know, great. You, you curated an amazing list of other " intentional communities".
Steve Nygren (51m 0s):
Who'd you talk with on that paramount?
Gisela Willams (51m 3s):
Oh, Brett, that's an incredibly successful example of urban planning. Right? It works, but yeah, no, I, I think it's, it's, it's too bad that we can't point to these, these places. And there can't be, you know, a much more clear line because, you know, we need more of that kind of smart, urban planning. I mean, look at the high line, right? I mean, people use that as an example over and over again, every city in the world wants a highline in New York, you can make a clear connection to economic impact.
Gisela Willams(51m 47s):
You know, I think one of the most interesting things that are going on in general are these projects that bring nature into an urban space and urban culture into rural spaces. Those that's really some of the most dynamic projects I've seen, which, you know, Serenbe, you know, they, they bring urban culture into sort of a rural landscape connection.
Steve Nygen (52m 10s):
That's a great connection. And we're all very similar in what we're doing. I mean, Atlanta, the BeltLine has done it all the same examples,
Gisela Willams (52m 16s):
But yeah, well, that's great. I actually really love the BeltLine. I mean, it's just very ambitious.
Steve Nygren (52m 24s):
Yeah. And that's changing even, even a greater impact than even the highline, because the amount it is, but I many times point to the value of central park. I mean, both the nature and real estate value, I mean, are, what did we just take it for granted? Absolutely. But it's the same thing because that master plan to understand those things way back then.
Monica Olsen:
Yeah. You do wonder if over the past, you know, 70 or plus years master-planned has sort of gotten a bad name or development has gotten a bad name because of ...
Steve Nygren:
Lousy Job development in our windows.
Monica Olsen(53m 3s):
Yeah. So we've got to turn it around, which, which actually eater, hoping to launch your own podcast. Right. That would highlight it. I think these type of communities, whether they're utopian or conservation, but it sounds like I, again, I really love the mapping. The idea, the mapping of is such a great way to think about it. So tell us a little bit about the vision for that and your timeline.
Gisela Williams:
Well, you know, it's funny cause I, I, a few years ago, maybe it's now eight years ago, I did my own website and I made this big map and my, my inspiration was sort of like some kind of 15th century, you know, vintage map of the world with all these kind of mystical creatures, you know, hiding in the water.
Gisela Willams (53m 50s):
And, and I wanted to kind of map these places because I felt like no one was actually doing it or I hadn't come across anything like it, but I felt like the truth is there, there were some people and some of these people don't even really, they're very skeptical about even getting themselves out there. They like to remain kind of private. So I had this idea of having this sort of secret little island on the map that if you knew about it, you could click and like find all these stories. But, you know, I, another thing that has recently, because, you know, with this podcast is pitched that I'm putting together, I've really had to articulate what I'm trying to say.
Gisela Willams (54m 34s):
What are these projects about? What is it that, you know, are special about these places? And I, I basically have come across the idea of the, you know, the satire Candide, you know, Valterra tear the philosopher, he, you know, kind of concluded at the end of that of kind of need, you know, we must cultivate our garden. You know, he, he kind of posed this question, do you March out in the world and make change, or do you just kind of make this, you know, turn to your own backyard and make something kind of beautiful and creative that's for the greater good.
Gisela Willams (55m 15s):
And I think, you know, that's what he was saying. You know, you, you just, it's sort of a local effort that you just put all your heart and energy into and, and it hopefully inspires and people will make impacts. So that's kind of what I felt like about all of these projects that I've covered, that it was a bit like that, like Megan is beautiful garden that was open to the public and had some kind of humanitarian effort going on. And Voltaire himself actually did that. He was an amazing gardener, but he also started this watch company so that he could employ refugees and it was extremely successful.
Gisela Willams (55m 57s):
Actually. It was, it was like, do good and do well, you know, in terms of economic, it was an economic success story. So a lot of those kinds of projects I'm interested to, it's sort of, you know, it's not that we just have to redefine our, our environment, our design environment, but also our economy, you know, I think moving forward, I think we're realizing that we have to, we have to redefine remake our infrastructure. We were realizing that right with our health system. And, and so, but I think, you know, we all have to, so we're, we all have to be connected, right? Because we can't as individuals just build a road, you know, that that's the government's job, but you know, if, if as individuals, those who have the privilege or the luxury to do that, they, I think that they really are responsible for, for, you know, raising the bar and to helping people as, as they can.
Gisela Willams (56m 54s):
And then, you know, at the same time, we have to realize that we are all connected and somehow we have to connect all these beautiful gardens and, and make it more of a universal one.
Monica Olsen:
That's beautiful.
Steve Nygren:
That's a great mapping
Steve Nygren:(57m 13s):
It, so we could refer to the maps. You can do, you could, you could have your branding.
Gisela Willams (57m 20s):
That's good. No, I would love to, you know, bring people together. I mean, you do, Steve, you have that forum, right? I mean, you have this comp, which I would love to come to when you, you get to make it happen because it's so exciting for all these people to come together and share their ideas. I know that with the Highline, you know, one of the founders, Robbie Hammond, he was, he also created the friends of the Highline or like a larger group that was trying to connect to all of these types of public projects, public space projects, because I think it's really important, you know, it's, it is like creating a map and also bringing people together so that they can share their ideas because a lot of them are pioneering ideas or innovative ideas that would help a different project.
Gisela Willams (58m 10s):
So I, I, I love the IME, you know, it's too late for me to be some kind of, you know, 15 century Explorer it's, but I feel like this is just exciting, you know, to map all these forward thinking ideas and projects and people. So I'm gonna definitely keep doing it. And I, and I, when I do do get going on these pitches sent in and I do these podcasts, I would really obviously love to talk to you guys again.
Steve Nygren (58m 46s):
We love it. And I know you can explore in your own backyard. I think it's a good indication. Your, your image of the Southern south was very different than your reality. And I think Atlanta and the Metro area is very progressive in a lot of ways.
Gisela Willams:
It's so true. I, you know what, I'm so impressed with what's going on at Atlanta and urban farming. It's incredible. Actually, I was just doing a bit of research about that. I think Georgia is really ahead of the game. And then I was also told about white Oak. I think it's white Oak pastures farm in Georgia. That's like really ahead of the game in terms of, you know, meat production. So I think Georgia is actually a really exciting place for a lot of these projects.
Steve Nygren (59m 32s):
Did you know that, that for two years now, we have had a CSA program with white Oak where their first one that partnered with our vegetable CSA. So you can actually put in a script prescription subscription, pick up your vegetables and your proteins here at Serenbe.
Gisela Willams(59m 53s):
So do you guys deliver to Roswell?
Steve Nygren:
We do not. Lights are welcome. No, but I'm looking forward to, I mean, it really was impressive to see all these urban farms happening.
Gisela Willams:
And I think it, Ted Turner's grandson, who's kind of a part of the government in Atlanta.
Monica Olsen:
Who's also kind of helping out to support the ability for the city. And then they had Mario had just left, but he was the urban ag director and it was the first urban ed director in for any city in the country.
Gisela Willams (1h 0m 36s):
He was. And now I think there might be a few more, but yeah, you're right. Atlanta is a pioneer, really excited. It's about food. It's about food insecurity to, you know, it's really delving into these issues about food, not just for like, you know, farm to table, fancy restaurants. Like it was a lot of these urban farms are dealing with major social issues, which are incredibly important. And so, yeah, I've been very inspired by what I've found here in Georgia,
Steve Nygren(1h 1m 3s):
How many and the, and the other thing you, you, we need to make sure you're tuned into is the river lands project. I don't know if you know about that.
Gisela Willams:(1h 1m 10s):
Well, you know what I, I found here in Roswell and I couldn't believe it is the Greenway. I think it's called here. It's so fantastic. It's just..
Steve Nygren (1h 1m 20s):
The plan that we've all been working on. And it's, it's about to be made very public. I mean, it's not that it's not public, and that's dealing with a hundred miles from Buford dam to Chattahoochee Benz park south of us. And so this is, it is the make sure that the river trail all connects, but also in the south 53 acres is to make sure that we're looking at a vision so that it doesn't all get eaten up with development like it has in the north part of the city. So there's, it's, , it's the next big project. And it connects in the BeltLine, the silver comment and all these other things. So it's very exciting.
Gisela Willams:
Yeah. No, I mean, that's really ambitious and fantastic. I, like I said, we found the Greenway recently and it was like, it was so great because it felt like traveling to Southeast Asia when we ran into a copperhead, I mean, it was, it felt so that it was just off the 400, you know, it was right off of the strip mall basically, you know, and it goes on for miles. So to then attack, you know, to combine all of these spaces, that's, that's incredible. We really should have brought our bikes from Germany.
Monica Olsen:
Well, you gotta purchase them for the summer.
Gisela Willams(1h 2m 41s):
I think it's worth it. And we've decided, yeah, definitely.
Monica Olsen:
Well, this has been so, so wonderful. Is there anything you want to add? I mean, you know that I could talk to you forever, but I don't know.
Gisela Willams:
I had this idea that we were going to meet together because I told you this on an email. I like, you know, I must've thought that you guys were kind of somehow a bubble outside of the coronavirus situation, or maybe it was just wishful thinking on my part. I was like, oh, I'll see you at 10:30.
Monica Olsen:
I was like, we're not in person yet, but we're close. We're getting there. It is.
Gisela Willams (1h 3m 21s):
Yeah, exactly. Excellent. Well, it was so nice speaking to you so much and we'll look forward to seeing you soon.
Monica Olsen:
Hi, there are two rubrics in building a city. You can follow the sprawl mentality or you can preserve land while boosting economic development, tsunami builds and designs to be both beautiful and environmentally sustainable. If you're a city planner, developer, Landon, or policymaker, there are common sense solutions you can take to build a biophilic center community, attend the Nygren placemaking conference this fall to learn more details. And Nygren place-making dot com. That's N Y G R E N P L A C E N A K I N G.com.
Monica Olsen (1h 4m 15s):
Thank you for listening to ceremony stories. New episodes are available on Mondays. Please rate and review the podcast and make sure to email your questions for Steve Nygren to storiesserenbe.com may even get to hear them on the podcast. More details about episodes and guests are available on our website, serenbestories.com.