Serenbe Stories

Intersectional Environmentalist, Fashion, and Diandra Marizet

December 21, 2020 Serenbe / Diandra Marizet Season 4 Episode 12
Serenbe Stories
Intersectional Environmentalist, Fashion, and Diandra Marizet
Show Notes Transcript

Diandra Marizet stopped through Serenbe in December 2019, while on a road trip from New York to her family's home in Texas. She found us while searching for farm stays she could visit along the way, and was drawn in by Serenbe's design intention. Her afternoon here made an impression, and her subsequent work on Intersectional Environmentalist made an impression on us.

Diandra Marizet is a founding member of Intersectional Environmentalist, which is a platform with the goal of dismantling systems of oppression in the environmental movement. The founding group created a Council of environmental activists and sustainability advocates that are committed to identifying the ways in which injustices happening to marginalized communities and the earth are interconnected.

In this episode, we talk with Diandra about her background in fashion, most recently with Kate Spade, and how that lead to climate and environmental activism. 

 (1s):
Hey guys, it's Monica here. I wanted to tell you about a new podcast that I've started with my very good friend, Jennifer Walsh called biophilic solutions. Our last season of ceremony stories, building a biophilic movement was so popular that we decided to dedicate an entire podcast to it every other week. Jennifer and I will sit down with leaders in the growing field of biophilia. We'll talk about local and global solutions to help nurture the living social and economic systems that we all need to sustain. Future generations more often than not. Nature has the answers. You can find biophilic solutions on apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, subscribe and follow us today. So you don't miss an episode.

0 (41s):
All right, now let's get back to ceremony. Stories. Ceremony is a place where the innate connections humans have with nature and all living things is celebrated through work and play. And we're here to tell the stories of those who have been inspired by this biophilic way of life in our community and across the country. This is ceremony stories.

0 (1m 23s):
Diandra Marizet stopped through ceremony in December, 2019 while on a road trip from New York to her family's home in Texas, she found us while searching for farm stay. She could visit along the way it was drawn in by Sarah bee's design intention. Her afternoon here made an impression in her subsequent work on an it, her subsequent work on an intersectional environmental ism has made an impression on us. De Andra is a founding member of intersectional environmentalist, a platform with the goal to dismantle systems of oppression in the environmental movement. The founding group created a council of environmental activists and sustainability advocates that are committed to identifying ways in which injustices happening to marginalized communities.

0 (2m 6s):
And the earth are interconnected. In this episode, we talk with Deandra about her background in fashion most recently at Kate spade and how that led to climate and environmental activism. But first ceremony stories is brought to you by the, in it ceremony. The Inn is nestled in the rolling countryside of bucolic ceremony, where guests can walk on the 15 miles of trails through preserve forest land, the wildflower meadow, and the animal village. You can relax by the pool hot tub or in rocking chairs on the wraparound porch, play on the croquet lawn swings and in-ground trampolines connect with nature and each other all while staying in luxurious rooms on the in-ground or within the community of Seren, be book your stay today at <inaudible> dot com.

0 (2m 47s):
I want to welcome everybody back to Sandy stories. Today. We have a special guest and Diandra Marizet, who is a conscious curator brand strategist writer and founding member of intersectional environmentalist. Previously worked at Kate spade on the apparel buying team shifted her work to really look at sustainability, but also through the lens of fashion, social impact, and culture. She's doing digital downloads and educational experiences online to help people explore sustainability, the issues that impact people in the planet. Welcome. Hi,

2 (3m 22s):
Thank you so much for having me. Good morning, everybody.

0 (3m 26s):
How are you, where are you coming to us from today? Are you in Texas? Yes, I

2 (3m 30s):
Am calling from Texas. I've been bouncing around a little bit lately, but yeah, just really enjoying some, some warmer weather coming from Manhattan the past few years. So enjoying this warmer winter,

0 (3m 45s):
Definitely, definitely. You recently moved back to Texas. You were in New York for a few years, right. But you grew up in Texas, is that right?

2 (3m 53s):
Yeah. I was born and raised in Texas and I had started my career in Manhattan actually. And then recently made the move back and I, I chose to come back via road trip because I have a very large dog and his name is Buster and he's a chocolate lab and I just, I could not bear the thought of putting him in the airplane. You know, I just thought that would be so stressful for his poor little heart. So I decided to come home, be a road trip. And on that road trip, I actually visited Sarah and bay for the first time.

0 (4m 27s):
That's right. So this was this year, but sort of in the winter time, I think right in the spring winter. So tell us your ceremony story. We ask all of our guests, how did you choose to drive through and how did you find us? Yeah,

2 (4m 43s):
I was kind of just moseying around online as I was planning my trip. I definitely love to have a well thought out, robust itinerary. So I just did a little bit of research, really trying to figure out how I can appreciate more nature. And I visited a lot of farms and I visited just a lot of really great parks along the way. And I was trying to appreciate just more domestic travel here in the U S I think that after college, I kind of got sucked into the glamorization of traveling abroad and I visited Europe a lot and I visited Asia and it just seemed like a really nice time to connect more deeply with, you know, the, this land that we're on here.

2 (5m 28s):
So yeah, I found Sarah and bay online. I thought that the, the design intention that went into Seren bay and all that it is, and all that it represents was really interesting. So I wanted to make sure to, to pop in and say, hello, and how long was that road trip? Oh, that road trip was, I want to say eight close to eight days, but mostly because I built in a lot of, you know, farm stays, which was, which was really nice. That's fun. That's great. It was a lot. Where else did you find yourself? I went to wild hope farm, which is great, loved that. And then otherwise kind of just stopped along the way at various, you know, parts, parks, and point views that were really great.

2 (6m 14s):
But yeah, I would say that that farm stay and then visiting Seren bay, where like my two, my two big stops that were there.

3 (6m 21s):
Did you stay at the end when you were here?

2 (6m 24s):
I didn't know. I ended up doing a little bit of a day tour. Monica actually took me on and it was great. And, and then there was Monica. And who else was it? That was there. She was so sweet.

0 (6m 37s):
Denise maybe or Millie? Yes. I think it was to me it's actually,

2 (6m 43s):
So just so welcoming, so great. Such an educational day, which was really exciting. So yeah. Thank you again for that. That was great. Yeah. There's

0 (6m 51s):
A cute picture. I think on Instagram of you in our animal village, which was

2 (6m 56s):
Love the animal village so exciting. Every time I see goats, I just freak out so

0 (7m 2s):
Well. And we had, we used to have some llamas. I mean, they're all really just, you know, pets, I guess is the way to say it, but now there's a couple, what are the steers? Steve? The baby steers are the mini

3 (7m 12s):
Students. They have a hump on their back. I forget what their actual breed is, but they just had a baby.

0 (7m 22s):
So tell us a little bit, so Texas, and I think you were at Texas a and M so you grew up there, went to college there. Tell us a little bit about how your younger years were inspired to get into environmentalism.

2 (7m 36s):
Oh gosh. Yeah. So growing up in Texas, I can, you know, very candidly say that I didn't have a lot of environmental oriented mentors in my life. Can't, can't say that I had too many people to look up to on that regard. I think, you know, as kids, we are all so primed to have such a love for the planet and animals and you kind of go grow up, watching all those shows about endangered animals. And then you grew up a little bit and life takes over. We've got like sports and proms and things like that. And those, I guess, those things that we're taught as kids just tend to drop off a little bit, but for me, they just never did. I was always so passionate and I wanted to figure out, you know, I, I knew that there were different parts of the country and the world that honed in on environmentalism to such a beautiful degree and that I just didn't feel I had access to that.

2 (8m 25s):
So I did what I could to find, find it right. Find my, my place in the environmental movement, even if I wasn't consciously thinking of it that way at such a young age. And I ended up going to a and M where I spent at least one year on the ocean campus and work with the Texas Marine mammal stranding network where I helped to rehabilitate dolphins, which was really nice and learn a little bit more about that and just explore the ocean space a little bit more, which was fascinating until I found my way to business school, where I started honing in more so on marketing and fashion and retail, and kind of just started really exploring consumerism, which felt just so unrelated at the time.

2 (9m 7s):
But eventually, you know, I found myself in a place where they felt deeply connected and my, my journey has kind of come full circle since then.

0 (9m 16s):
Yeah. And you then ended up in New York, had you, I thought I listened to a podcast. You did an internship maybe in New York during college, is that correct?

2 (9m 25s):
Yeah. So my first taste of New York was me just hopping on a plane, going by myself. My family was very scared. They were like, what are you doing? And I just, I went and did an internship there. I actually ended up living really like right by the empire state building, which at the time sounded so glamorous and cool. And now that I've spent some time there, I'm like, oh gosh, that is not where you want to be.

0 (9m 50s):
You're like, it's not really neighborhood-y

2 (9m 53s):
No, it wasn't, but it was such a beautiful learning experience. And that was my first taste of my internship was with Ross. And that was kind of my first taste of like the low price retail sector. And of course, you know, that sector builds in a lot of really great points of accessibility, but I also had an opportunity to unpack a lot of the environmental implications of those models. And that was a really eyeopening eyeopening moment for me. And I think that the first part of my career, where I really started to connect what was happening with the environmental movement and mass consumption.

0 (10m 29s):
Yeah. It is interesting. I think I worked for old Navy for a number of years at the gap in San Francisco. And this is back in the early two thousands and it was just never discussed. Maybe there were conversations about how people were treated in factories overseas sort of lifecycle and sort of like, you know, sort of what that carbon life cycle is for the product, you know, that like sort of a Patagonia or some of these other products now just wasn't even in the vernacular, we just didn't even talk about it. Yeah. Yeah.

2 (11m 1s):
I think that one of the things we've seen shifting a lot in the environmental movement, or I'm sorry, in the fashion space with regards to the environmental movement is that there has been this huge siloing of chit-chat about the environment, but then important discussions about fair trade, labor rights and things like that. But there haven't been a lot of people really successfully combining the two conversations. And I think that that's what we're really starting to see now. So when we think about mass consumption, are we thinking about where all of the clothes that we throw I'm, I'm, I'm throwing up some big air quotes right now, where do these clothes go? When we throw them away? What does it mean? Where do they go and what are the environmental implications of all of this waste that we're producing?

2 (11m 45s):
So, yeah, I think that there's a lot of, a lot of opportunity to really combine those conversations and that that's kind of what we're trying to do through work now.

0 (11m 54s):
Yeah. So before we get to what you're up to now, I know that you ended up going to Kate spade and I know you sort of struggled a little bit, like continuing on the path of sort of this, you know, Kate's not a total mass market retail, but it's still, it's a pretty huge brand, but they did have sort of a secret social impact that I didn't know they even had. Can you tell us a little bit about your time at Kate spade and what that social impact was and how that sort of informed you?

2 (12m 25s):
Absolutely. So our, I had started really deep diving into sustainability just as I was applying for Kate spade. I was kind of like in the interview process and I felt the process was going really well, but I was a little bit at odds. Like I was like, do I take this job at Kate spade while I'm learning how horrible the fashion industry is? But I think that there were a lot of elements at play with regards to why I really wanted to get into the industry and learn more. So I think that apparel specifically was an opportunity for me that I was really interested in because one, obviously mass consumption was something I wanted to learn more about, but then too, there is such a beautiful cultural element to the art of fashion and adornment.

2 (13m 11s):
And I think that that was something I really wanted to just sit with for, for a moment. And so when I entered the world of Kate spade, it was such a beautiful time for me to explore just unabashedly femininity, I think. Right. And that, that is definitely not something I feel I have personally done a good job of embracing and also just not, I would say even just aesthetically, anybody who's listening know has Kate spade imagery in their head. I wouldn't say that I, from a personal style standpoint, identify with that aesthetic at all. So it was just interesting to kind of be an outsider looking in on that style. So that was, that was great.

2 (13m 51s):
But then additionally, they also had this internal initiative called on purpose, which I don't think by any means is a perfect initiative, but it was just interesting to learn about it. Basically if a few years back, I want to say it was five or six, five or six years ago, the on-purpose label was created. It was kind of like a label within a label and it was created so that Kate spade could essentially test a more ethical relationship with a factory that really supported the, I would say financial wellbeing, the mental health wellbeing, just like a more holistic approach to what it means to have an ethical partnership overseas.

2 (14m 34s):
And so they found this beautiful community in Masar Rwanda, which had experienced over the past decades, just terrible genocides and were seeking forms of recovery. And there's all of this beautiful culture there around artistry. And I think that the label was really able to harness that really well in a way that translated to small leather goods or small bags with just like beautiful farms that are embroidery, et cetera. So that was great. But I think that it was eye-opening for me to just understand the notion of social enterprise and really what that means in a fashion landscape. So I, I think that, yeah, for me, it was just really eye-opening to get, to watch how this huge retailer, as you said, they're not, they're not the biggest, but they're, you know, big enough, I think that we hear big retail, we hear oh, big retailer, large brand.

2 (15m 31s):
And we assume that there are just so many barriers to ethics and I mean, totally true that there that's definitely a real thing, but yeah, it was just interesting to watch the ways that really passionate folks within the walls of a larger brand were, were fighting to, to test these concepts just to see what we can make happen. So yeah, I really enjoyed that experience.

0 (15m 56s):
Yeah. It's a toughie, right. Because I think there's become so much more awareness over the years about, you know, how can you do well and do good because if we don't make money, we can't keep up the enterprise, but you can't. Well, I shouldn't say you can't cause a lot of people do, but I think we believe at Sandy, like the money, isn't the end all be all. I mean, you have to do it to keep going. We need to sell houses, but there's like a higher purpose that sort of pushes us forward. And so in like the B Corp. And so how do you find that balance? You know, and I think sometimes in these large corporations having come from some of them, you know, and especially Kate spade, you know, who's not with us any longer, but you know, she probably had a passion and wanting to do good, but she already had created this conglomerate.

0 (16m 45s):
And so how do you push that through as a passion project, does it fit into this corporate and I'm using the air quotes now, jigsaw puzzle, that's already off and running. You know, and Steve, I was telling Deondra earlier about Ray Anderson. And I think that that's an interesting story of how he has really turned interface or he turned he's no longer with us as well, but he was really a mentor of yours, Steve, and how he really turned interface to be go carbon neutral. But I'm not sure if you can think about his struggles that he had is that was sort of beginning.

0 (17m 26s):
Well,

3 (17m 26s):
The overall on this subject is, you know, the, the only true sustainable or environment it's sustainable method is when it is for profit. But our problem is we've gotten to where profit is the lead rather than a piece of the entire thing. And, you know, that's certainly when, when Ray realized that the carpet was one of the huge polluters after reading Paul Hawkins book, it wasn't to become a nonprofit carpet company. It was how to, how to be calm a sustainable for profit company. And so I think that's a lot of times where people get mixed up many times when we talk about Sarah B people think that it is because it's environmental, it is a sacrifice to profit, and that's not the case.

3 (18m 22s):
W you know, w when, when the urban land Institute a few years ago asked me to address their, their convention in Dallas, th the topic was what is the premium to do an environmental development. So that's just the automatic assumption that it costs you more. And of course my whole presentation was the dollar savings environmentally. And, and so that, that's, I think what we really have to change the attitude because people think they have to sacrifice rather than enhance.

2 (18m 53s):
Yeah. I think that that's such a good point. And I, one of the things that we are exploring with so many incredible people in our community right now is just the notion of people, planet profit, and what that really means. And it's really difficult to, I think, get that balance right, when you're coming from a lens that has been edgy when your lens is educated in the current capitalistic system that we exist in, it's really hard to kind of untrain your brain, as you said, there's a lot of assumptions going in around what it means to be sustainable. But one of my favorite things to do with regards to that conversation is really look back to, you know, ancient empires that were building massive, incredible, sustainable civilizations based on the notion of resourcefulness.

2 (19m 40s):
And I think that, that you kind of just got that wheel turning in my brain, but yeah, that's one of the things that I really love exploring is just really understanding how BiPAP black indigenous and people of color communities have historically been the blueprint for sustainability and how harnessing that today can build a balanced model between people profit and planet.

3 (20m 1s):
What was one of the simulations that you remember that was most interesting? Hmm. I think

2 (20m 6s):
That, well, I might be a little bit biased I'm coming from my Mexican background, but I will say that one of the, you know, studying the Aztecs who, you know, had their own problems and issues with, you know, civilization and culture, they still just had a really interesting take on agrarian, urban ism. And I think that just like a really resource efficient culture that was highly productive from an agricultural standpoint, that recycled tons of nutrients from their wastes. And I think that when the Spanish came to colonize the ass tags, they were so impressed with the way that the Aztecs had had built their civilization and their framework.

2 (20m 55s):
And I I'm still unpacking why this happened, but the, in the midst of colonization, they actually ended up dismantling a lot of that framework. And Mexico city even today really suffers as a result of colonization, kind of coming in and imposing their own thoughts about the way that infrastructure needs to work from a sustainability standpoint. So I'm still unpacking so much of that, but I just think it's, it's so incredible to learn about how just taking a step back to look at our ancestors and our culture can inform so much of the progress that can be made today.

3 (21m 29s):
Well, it's probably going on right today in our food systems. You look at how efficient, and it was better for the soils and the food we ate a hundred years ago, 80 years ago. And we've totally destroyed that agrarian economy, the economy of it, the healthy food, and we're destroying the soils. So you can easily see how it happened. We think efficiency is the answer, and it actually destroys yeah, a hundred percent.

2 (22m 1s):
I recently read, I don't know if you y'all have read this book, but I recently finished reading braiding Sweetgrass, and just such a beautiful book that talked a lot about the way that indigenous communities really view their relationship with the planet and how science has done us. A little bit of a disservice, really ignoring that relationship. And I, and I think that for me, what I took away from not only that book, but a lot of the studies that I've been doing over the past few years is that when we don't bring black indigenous and people of color communities and just the wisdom that comes without ancestry to the forefront of environmental conversations of sustainable design conversations, when we lose the cultural element, we lose beautiful ways of looking at the world.

2 (22m 47s):
And I think that that's why we are largely in the mess that we're in.

0 (22m 51s):
Yeah. I totally agree with you. In fact, you might enjoy, if you haven't read it, there's a woman, Julia Watson, who is a British kind of active activist and academic. And she, I think her book is called low tech, and it's all about indigenous technologies over time, studying and Borneo and talking about living bridges and the technologies, these engineers, right? These people who still are, they're part of the culture that know how to make these living bridges and how I know. Right. And, and maybe that doesn't work at CRMB. Right. Although we do have some cool bridges that are sort of living, you know, the technology that I do agree, you know, colonialism and industrialization, you know, we're all about progress.

0 (23m 40s):
We're all about forward. And really sometimes we need to look backwards in, or really, you know, we always say, look to nature. Yeah. Conditions, but I'm, I'm in, it's called braiding Sweetgrass. I'm going to look that one up too

2 (23m 56s):
Highly recommend it. It honestly isn't that long of a read either, but just really eyeopening. And just as a spoiler, you'll, you'll never look at a strawberry the same way after you, after you've written that

0 (24m 7s):
So beautiful.

2 (24m 8s):
But yeah, Steve, I think you hit it on the head too with, with regards to kind of summing up our perception today and our point of view being very efficiency driven. And one of the things that I like that that book touches on is as opposed to viewing our progress as under, through the lens of efficiency, it's more so through the lens of reciprocity. And I think that's really beautiful, so highly recommend that book.

0 (24m 31s):
Right. Right. So that leads us sort of perfectly into COVID hits your home. You've finished your road trip. How does sort of this movement that you are the journey you're on with a couple of co-founders called intersexual and the intersectional environment mentalist. I can't even say it intersexual environmentalist. How does it, how does it happen? How does it come together? Obviously this has been a huge year to sort of rethink everything and how we do everything, but tell me how this came about

2 (25m 7s):
For sure. So I came home from my road trip and I, I guess just to add some shed, some light on that road trip, I had decided to quit my job at Kate spade. I really needed some time to really assess just my relationship with not only fashion, but just consumption in general. And I think that in a larger scope capitalism, and so I quit my job. I was very privileged in that. I have a lovely home to come back to with my family here in Texas. And so I road tripped back home. And I think that my, my intention initially was to just take a beat and go back to New York, but then quarantine hits. So we were kind of stuck here in Texas for a moment which ultimately ended up being, you know, I suppose a good thing for, for everything, for the things to follow.

2 (25m 58s):
So I was home. I was here and then the resurgence of the black lives matter movement happened after the murders of George Floyd, Brianna Taylor, and many others. And so I found myself visiting friends, you know, as safely as possible in Austin and Austin, Texas. And during that time while we were there and we were protesting and just trying to wrap our heads around everything that was going on, our founder, Leah Thomas experienced a really interesting session of vitality, if you will. She had posted on Instagram about her views on intersectional environmentalism, and really what that means to her, which we can definitely get into.

2 (26m 48s):
But I guess just to expand on the virality when we came back, I remember we came back to one of my co-founder's houses, not my co-founder at the time, but one of my co-founders houses. And we got on the phone with her really just to congratulate her on not only the virality, but just the language that we saw was equipping. Something that we thought was budding. Something that we thought was, was shifting the narrative a little bit, and it just felt really important. And on that same phone call, we decided to build a website of resources that somewhat mimicked a blog that I had prior to that just, you know, people to follow things, to read things, to watch.

2 (27m 35s):
And we had no idea what was going to come with that. We, we built this little website in a week thinking that maybe it would just help our own communities that we had kind of been operating within hosts, some really powerful conversations. You know, we, we definitely live in a beautiful ecosystem where we in the past would just enjoy each other's blogs and each other's posts. And we were a very small little network. And then through that website and the virality of Leah's post, we launched the platform to coincide with the website, of course, intersectional environmentalist. And it just really took off in a way that we did not anticipate

0 (28m 14s):
At all. Incredible, absolute, incredible. So tell me a little bit about, for people who don't understand or sort of aren't familiar with the term intersectional is, is, was it Kimberly Crenshaw that sort of popularized that?

2 (28m 31s):
So I'll I'll and only give the rundown. So just intersectionality as just a single term was inspired by a group called the Combahee river collective, which was a Boston based group of black feminist lesbians who formed in the seventies to really address how they were being left out of both the feminist and the civil rights movement. And in describing how they experienced multiple overlapping types of oppression, they believed that, you know, I think that they're one of their most powerful messages was that if black women were free, that it would mean that everyone else would have to be free since their freedom would combat discrimination based on race, class, gender, sexuality.

2 (29m 16s):
So really highlighting those overlapping identities and their work would later go on to inspire Kimberly Crenshaw, who is a professor of law at Columbia university and the, and the university of California to coin the term intersectionality in 1989. And in the past, you know, past decades, this theory has really expanded to include the of immigrants folks with disabilities. And those whose lives are impacted by multiple forms of discrimination and through an intersectional analysis, activists today are learning how to build more inclusive movements and amplify the voices of those who have traditionally gone on heard.

2 (30m 0s):
So later during my, I guess, during the founding of my company, just before that, when Leah went viral, her post included the way she applied this to environmental ism. So she described intersectional environmental ism as an inclusive version of environmentalism, that advocates for both the protection of people and the planet. And I think that we hear that a lot. We hear people on the planet, people on the planet, but historically people haven't been such great advocates of people. So really it's specifying that. It identifies the ways in which injustices happening to marginalized communities and the earth are deeply interconnected.

2 (30m 40s):
And it brings those injustices done to the most vulnerable communities and the earth to the forefront of the conversation and does not minimize or silence, social inequality, and really advocates for justice for

0 (30m 54s):
People on the planet. It was beautiful words. Well, both of you, it was fantastic. I think that even hearing climate, you know, adding climate justice to climate or adding crisis to climate, I think has been very, very impactful this year, if not prior, but really coming into sort of more of the, the nomenclature of the culture this year and really understanding the ethics of climate activism.

0 (31m 34s):
Right. And I know, you know, Steve and I talk about it, you know, if for those listening, you'll both know that we're both white, but you know, it's been kind of a male white dominated world, and that's kind of obviously many things. And so we have worked really hard with a biophilic Institute that we're both on the board and Steve chairs of how do we bring, you know, women in, how do we bring BiPAP in, how do we bring students in that? It isn't just a, you know, sort of, oh, the senior, you know, white men. And it's a challenge sometimes. And, but what we found is everybody's out there, you just have to look really hard and you have to expand your network.

0 (32m 21s):
So I think your group is an, an amazing place that we'll be looking to more and more to, to pull people in, to have the conversations, tell me so that this happened in sort of the late spring summer, this launched in July, July. Oh my God. It was like yesterday. No, I know

2 (32m 42s):
It, it really has just been so fast,

0 (32m 45s):
So fast. Tell me, you know, you guys are kind of, you know, growing it in public, if you will. Right. You know, which is that it was really beautiful, that kind of vulnerable way to grow a business. Tell me about, you know, the four of you and what's going on and what are your goals? And I'm sure those are shifting, you know, here and there, but like what's the core of the movement and, and, and that you want to share. Yeah.

2 (33m 11s):
So I think that when we first launched the platform, as I mentioned, I didn't, we didn't know it would be so widespread. We thought it was just going to be within our community. But I think that regardless, the main goal was to amplify unheard voices. One of the, the ways that we decided to format the website across different topics and communities was really to highlight work that has been done in the past. I think that for folks who come from more privileged places and just have never really had to unpack any of these issues, it felt like a new conversation. So it was really important for us to highlight that this conversation has been happening for forever.

2 (33m 54s):
And that this is not a new conversation that some folks have just been privileged enough to not have to entertain them. So we was really important to us to build kind of this resource hub that would really amplify and highlight the work of folks who have been unpacking these difficult topics and difficult conversations for such a long time, in a way that is really deeply rooted in the way that BiPAP communities have engine sustainability. And so, yeah, I think that that was kind of the starting point. And now a lot of the things that we're testing and building are really rooted in that just amplifying unheard voices,

0 (34m 32s):
Which is amazing. And, and the Kimberly Crenshaw who also has a podcast, which is amazing for our listeners, totally looking at the matters, you know, she's an amazing voice and curates, incredible people. And I think your, your point of sort of a new conversation, right? Because everybody comes into it at a different place in their lives. Right. And I know Steve, you know, I was always sort of fascinated. I, I grew up in the seventies and in Los Angeles and, you know, was just like your typical kind of suburban kid didn't really think about sustainability.

0 (35m 12s):
Like we recycled my mom macro made, you know, whatever, but, you know, and Steve, you know, brings up that they were very conscious and had like the first Prius and, you know, they were doing a lot of the work that, you know, nobody was thinking about. And, and that kind of crew Steve, that you sort of knew here in instill our friends with in Atlanta, you know, not that you were sort of laughed at, but you know, people were sort of like, it was sort of silly or sort of extra, right, Steve, that, you know, you were like, oh, Steve's the, what's this tree hugger idea you have and how it's become mainstream.

0 (35m 52s):
Now, can you talk a little bit about

3 (35m 54s):
That? Oh, it, it, it's what we talked about earlier. Everyone presumed that it was a premium to do something environmental and you were only doing it because it was, it was a passion. It had nothing to do with protecting the earth. It had, you know, people really didn't believe it back land and, you know, and, and I can thank, you know, Ray Anderson, because even before he talked me into doing ceremony, he, we had started the bed and breakfast in some of our outlying buildings. And so he entertained there. So I got to meet all the, all the real voices of the nineties that were in that environmental movement. And it was relatively small, which is the amazing part.

3 (36m 37s):
And Ray Ray formed what he called the eco mafia. And it was simply when w when some key person was visiting Atlanta, there were a group of us he would call and say, let's have lunch. And it was a very informal, and, and there were only 12. I mean, if we had 14 at a, at a lunch, it was a big, it was a big deal. That's how small th th the movement was. And so it was common sense, but yeah, it was. And when we started ceremony, I realized that I needed to drop the word environmental community because people thought I was building straw, bale houses and solar, and had, and I realized at that point that if, if we were going to change the financial markets, I needed to just build a great place that had all the environmental components.

3 (37m 30s):
And that's what we did. And that has changed attitudes in a lot of diverse industries, because the people move here just because it's a great place. And then they learn about recycling and the importance of solar and, and reduced energy demand and all those things. And then they can take those into their various industries. Yeah. I

2 (37m 51s):
Love that. And I think that one of the things that, you know, there, there are so many great initiatives like that happening right now. And like, I love on, I dunno if y'all are on Tik TOK, but there's like this trending hashtag it's like, cancel lawns. Hello. And I think that that's so beautiful and I love to see all of these different initiatives kind of coming together. And for me, what I hope to be able to continue to do, like through the, you know, through our work is to really make sure that as we go uncovering these really beautiful solutions that can inform the way that we choose to live moving forward in the way that we want to progress is that we're simultaneously unpacking certain communities.

2 (38m 37s):
Don't get to live that way, really making sure that we're building in modes of accessibility as we're creating these things and testing new concepts. And I think that that's, that's really, you know, the, the flip side of the conversation that hasn't been had enough,

3 (38m 53s):
One of the big issues in there that, that bugs me is, is affordable housing. You know, everyone talks about affordable housing yet. We don't talk about the, the re reduced energy demand. I mean, I think it's a crime to do a affordable house that has a power bill, because it doesn't have to be today. The technology is there, whether it's geothermal or, and solar for a very small premium that that should be added in because then it's true affordable housing. Yeah. Right.

2 (39m 26s):
That's like a more, like, how can we look more holistically at what we're offering and deeming accessible

3 (39m 32s):
That's right. And they should all have gardens. I mean, we sh every, every person graduating from school should know how to grow and prepares their own food. And every affordable housing community should have a farm within it.

2 (39m 46s):
Gosh, criticizing the education system is just a whole nother episode, Steve,

0 (39m 53s):
To have you back for that one. One of the things that I think you know is wonderful is that you've talked about a little bit is language and building community around that language. Can you talk a little bit about that, of like what you guys are doing? Cause I think intersectionality is such a wonderful word and it's, if you will, a new word and sometimes the old words get co-opted. Can you talk a little bit about that concept? Yeah. So,

2 (40m 23s):
You know, using the term sustainability, you know, over the past few years has brought me personally so much, but I think that the way that it was heavily co-opted before my discovery of it or a personal adoption of it really brought me into still a very educational space, but one that was very white led, I understood sustainability and visually associated that language to be, you know, white women in beige clothes with trash in a jar. And, you know, I think that that's all fine and well, but I think that the reason why, you know, language in the process of being co-opted and what I mean by that for, for folks listening is in this context specifically, at least for, for me, it's more so about a harmful whether intentional or not a harmful level of eraser that really deep roots the word.

2 (41m 26s):
And so I think that sustainability while it brought me so much good, it didn't bring me to a place where I could understand my own identity within the sustainable movement because of how it had been co-opted by a white led narrative. So finding intersectional environmentalism really meant getting to the root of what sustainability is and really learning that BiPAP communities are the blueprint for sustainability. And so I think that, you know, there may come a time where intersectional environmentalism gets co-opted and shifted and moved, but language is incredibly fluid. And I think it's important for us to be open, to evolving and understanding both why we need new words and new language to get behind, but also what the heck happened to the last word and how can we avoid that in the future?

2 (42m 13s):
So, yeah, sustainability will still very much so be a part of my language, a part of the, the words that I used, but categorically it's just been, you know, kind of shifted and, and shown in new lights. That for me, aren't building the most inclusive movement.

0 (42m 31s):
Yeah. Well, and I think not to dig into politics particularly, but just to talk about, you know, Republican and Democrat, if you talked about environmentalism, you know, over the past, you know, 30 plus years, it became this sort of liberal Democrat, you know, it, it, it became a political versus a policy initiative and it's so unfortunate because we've lost so much time and it's really not, it shouldn't be political, it's a human initiative. Right. And so how can we bring it back to that? And I think what you're doing, you know, helps bring us back to thinking about the environment as, you know, there's policies we can have around it.

0 (43m 14s):
It's not a political divide. It should be, you know, everywhere we're going, you know, what if it was the new, you know, this isn't new, but the know new moonshot, you know, you know, we should all be together moving forward together towards, you know, restoring sequestering

2 (43m 35s):
A hundred percent. I agree. And I think that it's important to even note that there are plenty of, you know, super liberal environmentalist that are like, why are you talking about race in a topic or in a conversation around environmental ism. And some folks just really don't want to understand how deeply connected they are and how deeply they inform each other. And so I think that that's, you know, I, I, for conservative folks or conservative groups that think that we're all over here in LA land, I would say that for a long time BiPAP in a liberal like community or liberal setting have had to fight for their identity and their voices within a liberal environmental movement as well.

2 (44m 16s):
So I, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't pat the liberal movement on the back either for being particularly inclusive.

0 (44m 24s):
I think that's a fantastically great point. And I think, again, back to the whole idea of the new conversation where you've come is if you don't, you know, it's up to us, it's up to each individual to be curious and ask questions and educate themselves. And it's okay if you didn't know, and it's okay that maybe you were on the, on the wrong side or didn't understand because it's all about going forward and how we can, you know, shaming people in canceling them is, I mean, some people may be, need to be canceled, but like really, you know, that's not the, the best solution, you know, it's really about how do we bring, not, not in all LA bring people together just to bring it together, but truly have a conversation.

0 (45m 9s):
Like why do you feel this way? And why do you not realize that? You know, and I think, you know, cities are really interesting when we talk about, you know, biophilia, you know, ceremonies set in the, in the country here with nature, but it has sort of a city feel right. The way, the way that it's laid out, but like big cities, quote unquote, Atlanta is the new York's, you know, there are so many things that can be done in one of our favorites is green infrastructure, which just sounds so boring and wonky. Like what if you brought green infrastructure, you know, sort of back into cities where you, daylighted your stormwater and now these sort of creeks that were hidden are back and we have green back into the city so everybody can enjoy it.

0 (45m 53s):
And it's not, oh, I have a view because I can afford it. Or I have the ability to go to a park, but it's actually in my backyard in my city. And so there are so many wonderful ideas and solutions that we just need to uncover, right. Cause we've hidden them or we've destroyed them or we've erased them. And, and, and I think it's going to be, I I'm very optimistic and hopeful that, you know, things are sort of cracking open through everything that's happened this year. And I think that figuring out, you know, what are those transport transformations that we can all sort of support going forward?

0 (46m 35s):
As we know, we have to have a reset after COVID and with the black lives matter movement, I think, you know, really listening to voices and sort of, again, back to indigenous solutions. No, I agree

2 (46m 52s):
Completely. And I think you, you hit it as well when you were talking about, you know, cancel clerk culture. I think that, of course, you know, there are some folks that just really need to get canceled, but I think that for the most part, it's really about shifting that to calling in. But one of the things I think that personally we need to all do before we, you know, I don't want to say before we engage, we should always be engaging. But I think a really good personal practice is just honing in on, we all have different forms of fragility. And I think that it's, it's really what stops us from having deeper conversations. And I, and I think that if I could say that there's one thing that we should all be really trying to unpack is like, what are the things that like I'm personally

0 (47m 37s):
A little fragile about. Right. And I,

2 (47m 39s):
And I think that that's a really important thing to, to explore, you know, one of the hard, one of the hard pills to swallow more recently was, you know, the results of this past election, which told us very loud and clear that the uproar of, you know, white folks, these past few months claiming solidarity and a desire to do the work ultimately was incredibly performative and really, you know, fell short. And I think that, you know, looking at the best way for people to get more involved and more engaged before having, you know, at least a super clear set of action steps is to just really have, you know, on top of exploring your own fragility, which we can all just like, please accept that we all have forms of fragility is to have discussions with like your fellow white peer specifically.

2 (48m 29s):
I think that people want to come into BiPAP communities and feel safer having those conversations, but, you know, the hard work is having that conversation with your racist uncle or so that's something like that. And, you know, talking about why intersectionality is an important lens to assess the framework of our world and really the hidden curriculum of life that really exacerbates inclusion. I'll make one, one recommendation for folks vibing with this riff that I'm going on here. There is a Ted talk by Steve. I think you'll enjoy this as well. There's a Ted talk by Anthony Jack that I recommend where he talks about access, not being the same thing as inclusion and the lens that he's approaching that is through the education system.

2 (49m 16s):
So Steve, that can be your homework for the next podcast episode. But yeah, I, I would say really making sure that we're unpacking our own forms of fragility and then making an effort to explore those conversations with, you know, the people in your family that might be the tough, the tough ones to have the conversation with

3 (49m 34s):
Being in Texas and, and where you are, you're in the hotbed of what's going on right now. I mean, he's a huge tensions, what any personal experiences you're having with that very tension and those conversations. Yeah.

2 (49m 50s):
You know, I think it's tough. I, I have, you know, here in Texas, I would say that even traveling around, it's difficult to kind of paint the picture of how unsettling it is to drive through the countryside and see, you know, Trump flags everywhere. And I think that people get very fragile about the demonization of a Trump supporter, but I think what's really important for people to understand is that if you can put yourself in the shoes of not only just someone who's generally BiPAP, but somebody who has darker skin, I think that it's really important to understand that someone might feel that it's really unfair to demonize say just the simple notion of like a Trump flag, but given everything that's happening, I can only make surface level assumptions about who you are that have implications on my life.

2 (50m 45s):
So I think that that's, you know, especially more so if you are a black man driving in the countryside of Texas. And so, yeah, I think that that's kind of a form of that's. I think the largest form of fragility that I experienced in, in Texas is people not wanting to be demonized to protect their, their own sense of self and identity. When in reality, I think that the more worthwhile nuance of the conversation is how freely and openly you associate with some, some you associate yourself with something that makes me fear for my life. And I think that that's how you take yourself outside of your own identity and not prioritize your own identity and really put yourself in the shoes of somebody who is, is so fearful of this symbolism for, for very apparent data-driven proven reason.

2 (51m 35s):
So yeah, I would say that that's more so the fragility that I'm coming across in Texas for the most part.

3 (51m 41s):
Well, and, you know, I, I think we had this very conversation yesterday. Did people associate anyone who doesn't wear a mask is a Trump supporter. And so they automatically put that. And I happened to know, you know, this person was sort of claustrophobia and didn't wear masks about that. W we were so fast to judgment and all of a sudden want no conversation and nothing to do and changing our entire attitudes by, by, by the mask. I mean, we just assume that's a Trump flag. It's the same association. Yeah,

2 (52m 18s):
Yeah, no, I think that that's interesting. There, there, I think are so many ways that we have been kind of trained to yeah. Like make fast, quick assumptions about folks. And I think that one thing that I'm learning to appreciate more, as annoying as assumptions can be on no matter what political party you're coming from. I think that what I'm learning to do is really appreciate that sometimes those assumptions are a survival tactic. And I think that just kind of being able to hold space for that while still just continuing to learn and educate myself is kind of where I've been trying my best to approach seeing is how I am in Texas. And I am around folks with a lot of different views.

0 (53m 2s):
Yeah. Well, and I think it is it's biological, you know, we, we have to protect ourselves and that's how we've, you know, over the years we've learned that, that we had to make this quick decisions in order to protect ourselves, our family. And, and that's why we classify things and put, want something to be put into a box and we want to, well, where do you stand? And it's, I think we do, it's hard to go back to, to go to gray because it's not clear. And then in that can be scary. But I do think just to circle back to symbols, symbols matter, symbols matter.

0 (53m 42s):
And unfortunately, symbols have been, it's more than politicized because it's just, you know, it's, it's just a challenge and that's something that would be interesting to talk more about, cause I don't have the answers, but how do you, how do you bring people back together when they're really hiding behind symbols or hiding behind these things and don't want to have conversations and it is, it's scary to have a conversation cause you think you might say something wrong or, you know, you don't know enough, so you can't be participate in. So how do we bring people together that it's okay. And I love that the F the hidden fragility you said was, that's a really beautiful line.

0 (54m 24s):
I like that a lot.

2 (54m 26s):
Yeah. Just like, again, reiterating that, like, we all have it, you know, we're all a little fragile about certain things. So just kind of unpacking that a little bit. And one thing, you know, for folks who are really wanting to have deeper conversations with like their problematic aunts or uncles, or brothers or sisters, or whoever, I think that one of the, you know, most successful methods that I have found as somebody who gets, you know, pulled into these conversations a lot is to really approach it from passion areas that the person you're speaking to has. So, you know, if your uncle or your just, I keep saying uncles, demonizing uncles, right?

2 (55m 9s):
No, no, not at all. Sorry, uncle Charlie. No. So I, you know, if you have a family member that you're wanting to have a deeper conversation with them, they're really into, you know, maybe their, their glory days in high school was playing XYZ sport, or maybe they're really into photography, or maybe they're really into nature or climbing, or just something specific. I think that it's so beautiful to challenge people, to really explore social justice from, you know, their own lane. I think social justice, if there's anything that I've learned over the past few years is that social justice hits every single lane. And I think that when you can really help empower people to be a better advocate within their own passion areas that that really really helped.

0 (55m 53s):
Yeah. No, I love that. We talk a lot about local that sometimes you get so overwhelmed by the, the, the challenges out there, whether that's, you know, how do I help the planet or how do I help, you know, BiPAP? Okay. I'm like, I don't know. I'm just saying, like, just watch the Netflix that, you know, if you can find your passion and in local, you know, get involved locally, get involved with your local city council or your mayor, understand what the planning commission's or your local school, you know, and, or just, you know, you know, whatever, maybe spruce up your neighborhood, plants and flowers, you know? And so that can be a catalyst for more that, that, you know, you don't have to solve the world's problems, not at all.

0 (56m 44s):
And I think, and I'll just speak personally, you know, that in, in the past, for me was just like overwhelming, you know, and, you know, my recycling or composting, I was like, is this even doing anything? You know? And so how do you, you know, find something local, grow your own community. And then who knows where that sparks and, and, you know, blooms into something that's, you know, regional or national or global, but that's something that we talk a lot about is like, it doesn't, you don't have to go, you know, I mean, we can vote, which we should all do, but like, it doesn't have to be solving this like world problem. You know, there's a ton of stuff going on in your backyard that needs fixing no, no, a hundred

2 (57m 28s):
Percent. And I think I love that you brought up recycling because I think that that's like the iconic staple of the environmentalist, right. It's like recycling. And I think that when we find, you know, small modes of action within our own lives, one of the things that I hope our platform does, and just like the work of, you know, people that are trying to get more engaged with intersectional environmentalism in general, is that we really start to shift the narrative around what we're doing, rather than who we are doing it for, and really kind of lean into that, that mode of reciprocity. So, you know, rather than thinking about the efficiency of recycling and how we can make it better, of course, that's an important question to be asking, but who are we making it better for?

2 (58m 15s):
And how can we identify who is being most negatively impacted by our trash? You know, so I think that just kind of asking, you know, those questions in, in a, in a way that is more rooted in reciprocity rather than rooted in, you know, like Steve said, re efficiency for the sake of efficiency.

0 (58m 34s):
I love it. I want to do a whole podcast on recipe for some reciprocity. I can't even say it. No,

2 (58m 40s):
It's, it's a, it's a new word for me as well. You know, reciprocity, you'll definitely be saying it a lot after you read braiding Sweetgrass, I'm

0 (58m 48s):
Going to do that. Do you have any final topics or thoughts? I mean, you've been so, so many wonderful nuggets you've given us that you want to share, or you're starting your new podcast. Tell us about that.

2 (59m 3s):
So I guess I'll leave y'all with that. We're definitely going to be unpacking more of these conversations. My team intersectional environmentalist, we just launched a podcast called dismantled

0 (59m 16s):
Us. So go follow us on apple

2 (59m 19s):
Or Spotify, whichever your preferred medium is. But yeah, we're really excited too. We, we just have such a robust, beautiful community of people who have been doing this work for so long, across many different, you know, passionate areas and yeah, we're just really excited to like build a safe space to have those conversations.

0 (59m 39s):
Well, we thank you so, so much for taking the time to spend with us. This has been a delight.

2 (59m 45s):
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is exciting and I can't wait to come back and visit when the world opens up a little bit more open

0 (59m 51s):
Invitation and you let us know and we'll go walk in the woods, look

3 (59m 54s):
Forward to seeing you in person next time.

0 (59m 57s):
All right. Thanks so much, Diandra. Thank you, Monica. Thank you for listening to Sandy stories, new episodes are available on Mondays. Please rate and review the podcast and visit our website to learn more about upcoming guests, episodes and everything by ophelia@sarahstories.com